Archive of Our Own ^beta

Disclaimer: The universe of The Sentinel, including the characters
of Jim Ellison, Blair Sandburg, Megan Connor, and Simon Banks, belongs to
Pet Fly Productions and the copyright holders.  No money is being made from this piece; I wrote it for fun, only.
 

Notes:
 

1. This piece is composed of a series of individual snippets.  If I followed the MPAA's rating system for each one, about 3% of them might get an R rating for frank discussions of sexual acts in conversation; about 10% might get a PG-13 rating for language and 'mature themes'; and the rest would probably get a PG rating.  

2. Because of the experimental nature of this piece, I've included an author's preface in Part 1.  In the preface I've explained the context in which this story grew, as well as given my acknowledgements to the many people who collaborated with me in the writing.

The story itself begins in Part 2.

3. This piece has been edited and spell-checked.  But because of the fact that I've tried to retain some of the feel of e-mail and on-line chat, I've left in occasional spelling, usage, and grammar errors.  

Warnings: m/m, some language

oooOOooo

Love in Unexpected Places, Part 1 - The Author's Preface

How It All Began...  

Back in early November of 1998, I suggested that the members of SenAD introduce themselves to the group, possibly revealing their ages, genders, occupations, locations, as well as how they came into the fandom and slash.  About 60 people out of the maybe 600 members of the list participated in the flurry of introductions.

But soon the sheer number of 'off-topic' posts began to annoy some 'old-timers.'  "Haven't we gone through this before?" someone said.
"Every one of these people owes an ObSenAD!" someone else proclaimed.

I followed up that comment by asking whether the writer*really* wanted to read 60 ObSenADs.  Someone said she would delight in such a thing.  This request was followed by the wail: "But if we write ObSenads about ourselves, they  would all have to be Mary-Sues!"

Not necessarily, I thought to myself...  
Suppose Jim Ellison and Blair Sandburg were fans of a TV show called The Watchman.  And suppose they independently discovered an e-mail list called WatchAD.  And suppose they joined the list - neither telling the other.  And suppose that in order to retain anonymity, they each logged on from an ISP which allowed pseudonyms and resisted finger searches.  

So with that idea in mind, I posted two
introductory posts to SenAD
from Wolf and Panther with this heading:

To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Who Are We?
 

I originally did this as a one-shot joke, one which got giggles from a few listsibs.  

But as time went on, and other off-topic threads emerged, I found myself asking what Panther or Wolf would say about them.  So they would join in the discussion.

Then, a strange thing happened.  People started writing back to Panther and Wolf, commenting on their posts, giving advice.  

Some of those people were aware that they were writing to fictional beings, but some people thought they were real members of the list. 

I informed all who responded [off-list] that they had participated in a fictional conversation and then I asked whether they wanted their contribution to be included in the final concatenation of all of the snippets.

Most said "sure!"  A few said, "Oh my god!  My kids interrupted me so I didn't notice the header - NO! Don't include me!!"

Well, what happened was really odd.  For me, anyway.

What began as a random series of occasional posts began to develop a story line.

People wrote to me weekly wanting to know whether Panther and Wolf would ever discover that they were really Jim and Blair; whether Jim and Blair would ever get together, and so on.  

I began to expand the story to include not only posts to WatchAD, but also private e-mails between Panther and Wolf, as well as conversations between Jim and Blair.  

And then magically word came of a rally for The Sentinel to be held in LA on January 8, 1999.  So of course, The Watchman fans, including Jim and Blair and Panther and Wolf soon looked forward to their own rally.

oooOOooo

The Experiment -  

This piece was very much an experiment in many ways.  I used the formats of e-mail, on-line chat, a website, and dialogue - attempting to preserve many of the conventions of each.  

Also, this story grew on a daily basis.  I responded to whatever topic was current on SENAD, so this was for the most part a spontaneously created piece.

This was also, in part, a collaborative work of art.  Several people participated in its creation, by responding to the guys on-list and in "private e-mails."

Of this group, I would like to thank:
 
Allison [who should practically be given co-author status], Grace,
Rhianain, Ann, Tracy, Mindy, Trekkin, Karen, Shan, Michelle, Gina,
Kelly, Anja, Angelika, Deb, Deka, Salleye, Jfarries, and Merry Lynne,
who let me quote her about cultural trends at Thanksgiving.
 
At one point, I developed a writer's block and announced that fact on-
list, asking for advice about the direction of the piece.  Several
people responded, and  I was able to use most people's advice.
 
Of this group, I would like to thank:
 
Carls, Casey, JC, Allison, Rikwen, AnnaBleigh, Deka, Karen, JenienceJ,
Ingrid, Chaomath, Cynthia, Cheyene, Rayden68, _Charly_, Kelly, Melanie,
Jane, Tracy, Nadine, Susan, LMDarling, Noon, Tealin, Larrkin, Spship,
Mick, GreyPessime, and Lmmorse.
 
And occasionally, I felt extremely depressed, thinking that really no
one would want to read another one of these snippets, that they must be
getting tired of them.  And just about the time I felt like hanging it
all up, I would receive wonderful letters of encouragement or
appreciation.  So ... I continued, until I found a reasonable point of
closure.
 
Of this group, I would like to thank:
 
Abink, allison, angelika, ann, AnnaBleigh, Bablit, Barbra, Bronwyn,
Carla, Casey, Cynthia L, Cynthia O, DJW3432, Dolimir, Emily, Fhianain,
Grey, Gumprichs, Iffer, Ingrid, JC, Jean, Jenn, Jessalyn, Jfarries, JKL,
Jody, Larrkin, Lite0991, LMDarling, Lmmorse, Louisa, lyrade, maharet1,
Merri-Todd, Michelle, Mispriss, Moz, n.b. Cressy, Noon, Pamila, Pessime,
Rayden68, Samantha, Shannon, Stacy, Susan, T. L. Webster, Tealin,
Teavish, Tracy, Trekkinn, Ursula, Virginia, ggoose, Patty, Jenny,
K'Kathy, Diane, and RG.
 

So what follows in Part 2 are time/date stamped snippets, which I've edited and then concatenated in pretty much the order they appeared between November 16, 1998 until January 17, 1999.

I hope you enjoy them.

--Marmoset

oooOOooo
 

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Who are we?
 
My turn, I guess.
 
I'm a 29-year-old Caucasian male living in Washington state.  I'm a grad
student working on my Ph.D. and do volunteer work with the local police
department.  I'm unmarried and live with one roommate, a guy I work with
in between teaching classes and working on my dissertation.  I don't
have any children [though sometimes my roommate could seriously count as
a candidate].
 
I don't really have a home town, a town that I'm actually *from* since
my mom tended to move around a lot when I was a kid.
 
I started watching The Watchman three years ago -- just love the way the
2 guys relate to each other on that show.  Reminds me a little bit of me
and my roommate.
 
Unlike many on this list, I've not been reading slash for very long and
I read slash stories only about this show, since I can identify with it
more than I can reading love stories about loud erratic Captains and
their Vulcans or about one-armed Ratboys and their friends, the
seriously disturbed paranoid FBI agents.
 
But a student and a cop?  Well, yes.  I'm there.
 
Just don't tell my roommate.
 
Shhh...
 
I'm not out of EITHER of those closets, yet.
 
I'll let you know if there's an update on that.
 
Gotta go.
 
--Wolf
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:16:31 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Who are we?
 
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I'm a 29-year-old Caucasian male living in Washington state.
   [snip]
: Just don't tell my roommate.
:
: Shhh...
:
: I'm not out of EITHER of those closets, yet.
:
: I'll let you know if there's an update on that.
 
Well, I was pulled right out of lurker status on this one!
What do you know!  Someone from *my* neck of the woods -- and a guy!
 
There don't seem to be too many guys on this list and I was beginning to
feel awash in estrogen here.
 
OK, I'll go.
 
I live in the Pacific Northwest also.  I'm a Caucasian male in my late
30s and I work in law enforcement for a fairly large city about the size
of Seattle.  I used to be an officer in the military, until about 8
years ago.
 
I was married once to a smart, level-headed woman who did scientific
work up here, but she eventually moved to California. I still like
her but we just didn't work out.  Luckily, we didn't have any kids.
 
Live with a roommate.  He's who got me watching this damn TV show we all
read about on this list.  Gotta say, though, I can really see the
attraction.  Those guys seem just so *real* to me.  Like I'm
watching*me* and my best friend.
 
He doesn't know I joined this list or that I read those stories -- I
just started reading them a couple of months ago, when somebody on the
list recommended one.  Something about the cop taking his student friend
on a stakeout at a gay bar and the kid gets slipped a mickey and wakes
up the next morning in the cop's bed and wonders how he got there.  Damn
funny story!
 
Well, I've been reading them ever since, whenever I can get on the
computer without my roomie noticing me.
 
I'm not sure I want him to know about my little hobby, here.  Think it'd
Make him a little nervous to know he lives with a guy who starts
breathing hard over m/m slash.
 
So really, I'm pretty much in the same boat as "Wolf."  Guess it's a
pretty common dilemma.
 
Gotta go.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:16:00 -0800
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: ditties and trivia
 
Well, since I officially lost my lurker status last week when we had
that rash of introductions, I thought I'd add my two cents here and
maybe get some advice.
 
You see, I live with a roommate that I really think is a kick and that I
think of as my best friend, but every once in a while, I worry that we
really don't have that much in common.  And I'm wondering if it's the
age difference.
 
You see, I was born in the late 50s and he was born in the late 60s and
the world changed a lot in those 10 years.
 
I mean how is he going to really relate to a guy who grew up when
regular guys just never wore earrings, who remembers being glued to the
TV set when they did the walk on the moon, who remembers the Watergate
thing unfolding, who remembers when the Beatles broke up, who remembers
the deaths of Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix.
 
When he started college, personal computers were commonplace.  When I
was 18, they were either nonexistent or rare.
 
I was growing up when homosexuality was illegal in every state in the
US.
 
There were places where you could go to jail for having oral sex with
your own *wife.*
 
I remember the first Earth Day.
 
So much that he takes as givens came into my life through turmoil.
 
For me, friendships are not easily made.
 
I'm just amazed that we can get along as well as we do.  But I worry
that these differences in experience will create some unbridgeable gap
someday.
 
--Panther
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 24 Nov 1998 20:34:50 EST
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Historical Trivia Obsenad
 
<< I'm just amazed that we can get along as well as we do.  But I worry
 that these differences in experience will create some unbridgeable gap
 someday. >>
 
::smile and shaking head::  On the contrary, Panther, I think that these
things will make your friendship closer.  What you talked about are
memories, not perceptions - if *those* are too different then it can
cause problems. But from what you've been describing, it sounds like you
both have a lot to get and learn from one another.
 
Those of us who grew up with such givens (I was born in '74) tend to
forget the struggles that brought them about - I am constantly amazed at
all the years of turmoil and change that led to where we are today.
Good *or* bad.
 
That you were there, that's just great - we tend to forget, or want to
forget, things like segregation, the Cold War, etc etc etc.  We need
people to remind us, so that we can appreciate such things and their
results, not to mention the people who accomplished great deeds.
 
Don't sweat the age difference based solely on its existence - if
couples can make it with 10 or more years difference between them, then
so can friends!  :)
 
Grace
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 24 Nov 1998 17:21:34 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: ditties and trivia
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: Well, since I officially lost my lurker status last week when we had
: that rash of introductions, I thought I'd add my two cents here and
: maybe get some advice.
 
: You see, I live with a roommate that I really think is a kick and that
: I think of as my best friend, but every once in a while, I worry that
: we really don't have that much in common.  And I'm wondering if it's
: the age difference.
:
: You see, I was born in the late 50s and he was born in the late 60s
:and the world changed a lot in those 10 years.
 
[snipped a lot of good examples]
 
: For me, friendships are not easily made.
:
: I'm just amazed that we can get along as well as we do.  But I worry
: that these :differences in experience will create some unbridgeable
: gap someday.
 
Panther,
 
I *so* know what you mean!
 
But I'm coming from the other side of the gap.
 
I have a roommate who is about 10 years older, also, and sometimes he
seems even older than that!
 
It's not that he's stodgy or anything like that; it's more like he's
seen a lot of heavy stuff in his life.  Lotta mileage on that guy.
 
I have been wondering about this a lot lately.  I wonder if the way he
was brought up will, as you say, make this gap unbridgeable.
His upbringing and mine were, like, SO different.  Like 180 DEGREES
different.  It's like I was brought up on Venus and he was brought up on
freakin' Mars!
 
Even so, I really love this guy.
 
And that's part of the problem.  I'm afraid that, because of when and
how he was brought up, he will, like, *freak* if I said anything
remotely like that to him.
 
You see, really it isn't the fact that there are 10 years' worth of
historical events that we don't have as shared experiences.
 
I'm worried but not because the Beatles had come and gone before I was a
year old, not because I was still nursing when men first played golf on
the moon, not because John Kennedy and Martin Luther King were names I
read about in history books, not because I skipped over typewriters and
went straight to PCs, not because I was a baby during the first Earth
Day.
 
I'm almost 30, so at least 20 years' worth of historical events are
events we *share*
 
No. What I worry about most is that despite the movement of history, the
social changes in the past 40 years -- these changes have not made it
any easier for 2 guys to relate to one another with any kind of
affection.
 
This guy, my roommate, my best friend, is actually kind of affectionate
on sort of an unconscious, non-verbal level.  But if I start getting too
... verbal ... about my feelings, it's back to the old insults and stuff
that I remember from grammar school.
 
I know that the way he relates is pretty typical of guys, especially
guys brought up when he was.  And maybe that's why I've always more
easily made friends with women ...
 
But this guy has become really important to me. And it is that one
difference that worries me the most.
 
I try to have faith.  I tend to be pretty sanguine about human
potential.  I just hope the fact that we are just 2 human beings trying
to do the best we can, given our natures, cultures, upbringings, and
environment ... will be enough, will carry us through.
 
So, Panther, I know what you're going through!
 
Good luck,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:43:47 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: When did *you*?
 
I'm really glad we did all those intros last week.  Now I feel more like
a member of this small society we've built here.
 
Anyway, the other day someone asked when we knew the guys first fell in
love, or something like that.
 
I have another question.  When did you first fall in love with one of
the characters?
 
I can tell some of you did because some of these posts just *drip* with
lust. ;)
 
But besides the fact that these guys are, you know, attractive -- when
was it that you went "Oh wow, what a guy!"
 
I can tell you one of those moments for me.
 
Maybe it wasn't the first moment, but it stood out.
 
Jake found out that Joe had been set up on a blind date. The guys were
talking and Jake asked, you know, what if she wasn't very good looking.
And the Joe said that he had talked to her for a while on the phone
while they were making arrangements and that she seemed really nice,
kinda witty.  The cop just seemed to *like* her when they talked.  Then
he said, "Don't you know? It's the person, not the package."
 
I, like, dumped my popcorn, going "Right On!"
 
So ... listsibs ... any aha moments for you?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:04:49 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: When did *you*?
 
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: But besides the fact that these guys are, you know, attractive
: -- when was it that you went "Oh wow, what a guy!"
 
: I can tell you one of those moments for me.
:
: Maybe it wasn't the first moment, but it stood out.  Jake found
: out that Joe had been set up on a blind date.  The guys were
: talking and Jake asked, you know, what if she wasn't very
: good looking.  And Joe said that he had talked to her for a
: while on the phone while they were making arrangements and that she
: seemed really nice, kinda witty.  The cop just seemed to *like* her
: when they talked.  Then he said, "Don't you know? It's the  person,
: not the package."
:
: I, like, dumped my popcorn, going "Right On!"
 
Since it's pretty quiet on the list today, I thought I'd comment on
Wolf's post.
 
I wish I could get you to talk to my roommate, talk some sense into him.
 
I missed that particular episode -- probably had to work that night --
but we had a situation like this a while back and I kept *trying* to say
the same thing, but just not in those words.
 
He kept talking about how this woman, a friend of his from school that I
met accidentally while talking on the phone, was somehow not my type or
not very attractive or something.  Kept using euphemisms like 'she has
an *inner* beauty.'
 
I kept trying to tell him that looks were deceiving and that it didn't
matter.  And he did eventually give up on trying to keep me from meeting
her.
 
But I don't think he really ever 'got it.'
 
I love the guy, but sometimes he just seems so immature.
 
But maybe that's not the real reason why I'm so discouraged by that
incident, though.
 
I think I'm worried that if he's so, I don't know, *conventional* about
things like this, then probably he'll be conventional about other things
that could cause *us* problems.
 
This is sort of funny, because most people look at us and see *me* as
the old-fashioned guy and see *him* as 'new agey.' But that's just
more proof that looks are deceiving.
 
Gotta get off now.
 
-- Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:37:23 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: When did *you*?
 
Angela said:
 
: Well Wolf
 
:
: I'd have to say it was in the pilot when Jake asked Joe to listen in
: on the two female coeds to see what they were saying about him.  When
: Joe told Jake that she thought he was a nerd he got this sad puppydog
: look and I just wanted to cuddle him and stroke his ...er...ego a
: little . Poor little guy!!!
 
: tc angela k :-)
 
I think Jake is great, too.  Reminds me a little bit of my roommate.
 
But for me, it's not what some of you guys call the puppy-dog look.  It
seems to be more of an accumulation of things.  One thing that really
impresses me about the kid is that he's not easily intimidated.
Remember when he originally met up with Joe?  How much hostility he
had to put up with before Joe finally lightened up and realized how
much the kid meant to him?  Joe was so *in his face* but he never
backed down.
 
Really impressed me.
 
Gotta go.  I hear the roommate coming.
 
--Panther
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 24 Nov 1998 23:17:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Allison <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: ditties and trivia
 
To Panther and Wolf:
 
I have read your particular problems regarding living with someone who
is 10 years older/younger and your fears about a generation gap and I
find I can't help offering up some advice:
 
A few years ago I too had a wonderful roommate who happened to be ten
years younger than myself...It was a strange arrangement...I am a female
but needed a roommate to share expenses. The best candidate happened to
be a guy....okay, a great looking guy. So we became roomies.....after
almost three years of sharing everything "but" our beds, I came to
realize I had fallen for the guy. But I was stubborn. I felt our age
difference and the fact that he "couldn't" possibly feel the same for me
was enough to refrain from telling him how I felt.  Then the unthinkable
happened. He was killed in an auto accident. Just like that.
One minute I'm ordering out Pizza, vegetarian, the way he liked it and
the next, I'm getting a phone call from the CHP.  Seven months after his
funeral I came across a journal of his and could not help but read it.
It was then I discovered his love for me.
 
Panther and Wolf, don't wait. It is obvious from your words that you
love your roomies...um...it is also obvious you are talking about each
other so please, from someone who lost her true love for lack of a few
simple words, listen to me and tell each other.  Years don't keep people
apart,  lack of shared memories don't keep people apart, the fact that
two people are of the same sex, mustn't keep two people apart.  Only
turning your backs on the truth can keep you two apart.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:06:11 EST
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: When did *you*?
 
Wolf wrote:
 
<< But besides the fact that these guys are, you know, attractive - when
was it that you went "Oh wow, what a guy!" >>
 
::mild snickering, completely unable to help myself::  First time I saw
the  cop shirtless comes to mind.  <vveg>  I know, I know, love not lust
...  Okay, now bear with me - I only came across this particular
addiction last  year (what can I say, I'm a late bloomer <g>).  But one
thing that definitely  hit the maternal chord was the "be careful who
you piss off in little league  football" ep.  ::chuckle::  Just that
image of our favorite police detective a)  as a kid and b) with such
hurt in his eyes confronting his father ...  ::sigh  and wiping at
eyes::  It just ... hit home.  Not in exactly the same way, you  know,
but my family - well, the word dysfunctional seems to have been  created
to describe it!  LOL.  Anyway ... I just went 'Awwww...C'mere,  lemme
hug you!'  ::chuckle::  And then, of course, there's been the times
when he's fully into Protector mode and gets that fierce look in his
eyes ... Gods help that man if he tries to use that look on a female
suspect - if she's anything like me, she'll go weak in the knees for
*entirely* the wrong reasons! <eg>
 
Later!
 
Grace
 
(who knows perfectly well that's more lust than love - just gimme time
... and the new season. ;))
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:05:29 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Gray Hair and Other Signs of Aging
 
I guess we're all adults, here, and everything, but some of you ladies
are enough to make a guy go beet red, what with all your talk about
where the gray hairs are showing up!
 
Let me tell you -- I'd take gray, if I could just have some hair!  I
know I keep it short, but I don't want to look like those guys that sort
of comb it over that spot on top.  So I just sort of said to myself
well, if there's no hair, there's no hair -- call it what it is.
 
I'm more worried about other things that come with age -- the muscles
that aren't quite as tight, the thicker stomach.  Vanity, I know.
There's other sort of personal stuff, but I really can't bring myself
to be as 'out there' as some of you ladies.
 
Let's just say that there are things that I could do at 30 that I'm not
quite up to doing at near 40. Well, I *can* but not as often or for as
long.
 
Makes a guy a little nervous about trying to initiate a new
relationship, if you follow.  Especially if it might be someone who
happens to be a little younger.
 
Isn't this thread a little off-topic?  Don't we have to do something
about that?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 10:39:05 -0700
From: Ann Teitelbaum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: WatchAD: gray hair and other signs of aging
 
Panther posted:
 
>Isn't this thread a little off-topic?  Don't we have to do something
>about that?
 
Don't recall how long you've been here, Panther, but yep, you now 'owe'
an ObWatchAD. :) That's a short (under 50 lines) dialogue, fiction
snippet,
poem, whatever that is about the show and the guys. That makes it about
the show or about slash, and then it becomes on-topic again!
 
Feel creative, Panther? :)
 
Ann
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:54:24 EST
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: gray hair and other signs of aging
 
Panther -
 
ROTFL yet again!  ::turning to other female members of list::  Told
y'all I  could just about see their faces!!!!
<g>
Seriously tho, just remember that with age comes wisdom, not to mention
greater sympathy, knowledge, and (::grinning already at imagining
Panther's blush::) creative uses of such knowledge.  ;)
 
Okay, okay, I said serious!  So here 'tis - if the gal you meet is worth
anything at all, she'll care more about the aforementioned qualities
than the amount of hair on your head, or the state of any other part of
your body.  What truly matters in a relationship  doesn't come from the
physical but from the soul - love is blind.  Take it from a helpless
(but never *hope*less) romantic.  ;)
 
Grace
 
(who knows the value of a good hug, true sympathy, and sincere love -
mainly
from not having any of the three in great abundance. ::sad smile::)
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:16:17 PST
From: "tracy l" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Gray Hair and Other Signs of Aging
 
>I guess we're all adults, here, and everything, but some of you
>ladies are enough to make a guy go beet red, what with all your talk
>about where the gray hairs are showing up!
 
<snip>
 
Come on, Panther, lighten up and let your hair down <bg>.  This is a
very friendly list.  You can tell us anything you like.  No need to fear
a few gray hairs and a broader forehead.  Besides it probably gives you
a look of intelligence and maturity.  Wish we women could age as
gracefully.
 
What about you, Wolf?  Getting a little gray and bare up there?  Don't
be shy.  Tell us.
 
Aging as I write,
Tracy
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Snippet [Was Gray Hair and Other Signs of Aging]
 
: Panther posted:
:
: > Isn't this thread a little off-topic?  Don't we have to do something
: > about that?
 
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Ann wrote:
 
: Don't recall how long you've been here, Panther, but yep, you now
: 'owe' an Ob-Watch-Ad. :) That's a short (under 50 lines) dialogue,
: fiction snippet, poem, whatever that is about the show and the guys.
: That makes it about the show or about slash, and then it becomes
: on- topic again!
:
: Feel creative, Panther? :)
 
Listmistress Ann says I owe some sort of snippet or something because I
veered off topic.
 
I'm not really a very creative guy when it comes to using words.  That's
more my roommate's line.
 
Well, here goes nothing.  My first snippet:
 
Wednesday nights I watched a show
About a Watchman by the name of Joe.
His partner goes by the name of Jake
And pretends to be a bit of a rake.
 
Joe says he loves Jake like a brother
But we know they're really hot for each other.
We shake our heads and roll our eyes
How can they be such clueless guys!
 
-- done --
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:14:18 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: American Thanksgiving
 
I know this is an international list, but the American Thanksgiving is
coming tomorrow.
 
Thanksgiving is one of my favorite traditional holidays.
 
Every year I make a list of things I'm thankful for.  Being able to
write to the people on this discussion list is one of them.
 
I feel a little lonely this year because my mom can't make it tomorrow;
she's out of the country at the moment.  But maybe I can make a special
dinner for me and my roommate.  He's not very close to his family so
maybe I can be a substitute.  He's really become *my* family in the past
couple of years.
 
Here's wishing everyone a pleasant weekend and to my American listsibs,
Happy Thanksgiving!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:24:35 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Ditties and Trivia
 
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, allison french wrote:
 
: To Panther and Wolf:
:
: I have read your particular problems regarding living with someone who
: is 10 years  older/younger and your fears about a generation gap and I
: find I can't help offering up some advice:
:
: [snip]
: I felt our age difference and the fact that he "couldn't" possibly
: feel the same for me was enough to refrain from telling him how I
: felt.  Then the unthinkable happened. He was killed in an auto
: accident. Just like that.
 
: [snip]
 
: I came across a journal of his and could not help but read it.  It was
: then I discovered his love for me.   Panther and Wolf, don't wait. It
: is obvious from your words that you love your roomies...um...it is
: also obvious you are talking about each other so please, from someone
: who lost her true love for lack of a few simple words, listen to me
: and tell each other.
 
: [snip]
 
Allison,
 
I *so* appreciate your beautiful story of the love you felt for your
much younger roommate and really felt for you when I found out that you
lost him.
 
I do love my roomie but I think you have the wrong idea, here.
I don't know Panther at all!  I saw his name for the first time on this
list last week when we were doing all the introductions.
 
He may live in my general area of the country but my friend does not
like to even use a computer, let alone join a list dedicated to
discussing the slashier side of a TV show.
 
He doesn't like to listen to me talk about sex even in relation
to*women* -- he'd, like, *freak* if he knew I was into reading about m/m
romances.
 
Nevertheless, I *will* give a lot of thought about talking to my
roommate, someday.  I would hate to be in the position of losing him and
never letting him know.
 
-- Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:51:49 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Ditties and Trivia
 
: On Tues, 24 Nov 1998, allison french wrote:
:
: To Panther and Wolf:
:
: I have read your particular problems regarding living with someone who
: is 10 years older/younger and your fears about a generation gap and I
: find I can't help offering up some advice
 
: [snip]
 
: Panther and Wolf, don't wait. It is obvious from  your words that you
: love your roomies...um...it is also obvious you are  talking about
: each other so please, from someone who lost her true love  for lack of
: a few simple words, listen to me and tell each other.
 
: [snip]
 
On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Allison,
 
: [snip]
 
: I do love my roomie but I think you have the wrong idea, here.  I
: don't  know Panther at all!  I saw his name for the first time on this
: list last week when we were doing all the introductions.
 
: [snip]
 
Allison,
 
I gotta speak up, here.
 
I'm with Wolf on this.
 
Just because we live in the same *region* of the US and have similar
problems with our roommates -- that doesn't mean we even know each
other.
 
I mean do all of the listsibs that live in, say, Texas know each other?
No.
 
Maybe it's a little unusual for *guys* to be on this list -- I saw
introductions from only about 5 guys.  But all guys on this list aren't
necessarily going to know each other, either.
 
It could be that our situation is not that unusual.  In fact, you have
given us very good evidence that 2 people of disparate ages can be
roommates and get along very well together.
 
Which has started me thinking that maybe my situation with my own
roommate may not be as hopeless as I was thinking.
 
If you and your roommate and Wolf and his friend can get along so well,
then maybe there's hope for me, too.
 
Hey, Wolf, keep us updated on your progress talking to your friend.
Maybe if you can get talking with him, I can give it a try, too.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:11:59 -0600 (CST)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Panther's Obsenad snippet
 
Congrats Panther on losing  your literary " cherry "
 
It was good for me .<eg>
Was it good for you ? <vveg>
 
tc   angela k  :-)
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Panther's Snippet
 
 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Angelica wrote:
 
: Congrats Panther on losing  your literary " cherry "
:
: It was good for me .<eg>
: Was it good for you ? <vveg>
:
: tc   angela k  :-)
 
I'm glad it was good for you ;)
 
I'm still not comfortable with creating stuff like that.  It was kind of
hard to come up with words that rhyme AND made sense.  But it was kind
of fun, I guess.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:47:13 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Body Image [snippet]
 
A few of us have been drifting off the discussion of the show and
discussing our bodies and body images.
 
Nothing wrong with the topic, IMHO.  It's just that I've been told that
now I have to write a snippet as a form of 'penance.'
 
I've never written anything fictional before, never thought I'd ever
write about my two favorite guys Joe, the Watchman, and Jake, his
partner.  I guess I'll just do this in script format.  Here goes ...
my very first ... snippet:
 
----------
 
Jake:  What's the matter, Joe?
 
Joe: A disturbing case today, Bud.  Not sure you wanna hear about it.
 
Jake: A murder?  A mangled corpse?  Did you need me there?  I should
have been there, right?
 
Joe: Calm down, Jake. It was none of those things.  It was a case of
child abuse
 
Jake: How did you get called into ... Oh God, Joe, they didn't ...
 
Joe: No.  She didn't die.  But she could have.  They found her lying in
bed, unable to move and barely able to breathe.  She weighed only 80
pounds.
 
Jake: How did she get that way?
 
Joe: After her parents died, her aunt took her in.  Things were fine
until she turned about 9.  Then the aunt started keeping her on a very
strict diet, to keep her weight down so she wouldn't be 'too fat.'
 
Jake: Aw maaann, why do they do that to girls?
 
Joe: I don't know. ...  Anyway, now she's 14 and she's about 5'6" and
her aunt had her on a diet of less than 900 calories a day.  She
wouldn't let her exercise because 'muscles' weren't 'feminine.'
 
Jake: What's going to happen to her?
 
Joe: They may be able to save her life.  But ...
 
Jake: But she'll be a mess for years.
 
Joe: Yeah.
 
--end--
 
_______
 
I couldn't think of a good ending to this.  Sorry.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:39:24 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Gray Hair and Other Signs of Aging
 
 On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, tracy l <[email protected]> wrote:
 
: >I guess we're all adults, here, and everything, but some of you
: >ladies are enough to make a guy go beet red, what with all your talk
: >about where the gray hairs are showing up!
:
: <snip>
:
: Come on, Panther, lighten up and let your hair down <bg>.  This is a
: very friendly list.  You can tell us anything you like.  No need to
: fear a few gray hairs and a broader forehead.  Besides it probably
: gives you a look of intelligence and maturity.  Wish we women could
: age as gracefully.
 
: [snip]
:
: Aging as I write,
: Tracy
 
After lurking for a while, I'm getting the impression that women are a
lot more outspoken about these topics than I was raised to believe.
Since you ladies seem to be in the majority here, I'll just have to
adjust.
 
You seem to think that men age gracefully.  This is a misconception.  We
may call it what it is -- bald is bald -- but that does not mean we like
it.
 
I still think I look basically OK, but I don't get the 'looks' I once
got when I was 10 - 15 years younger.
 
 I feel so invisible at times.  I've overheard women complain about
this, that after a certain age they feel like no one looks at them, like
they are invisible.  But guys feel that way, too.  They just don't talk
about it a lot.
 
That's something I appreciate about this list.  It's OK to mention these
things.
 
--Panther, who doesn't want to write another snippet today.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:04:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Mindy Allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Senad: gray hair and other signs of aging
 
>From Panther--
>
>After lurking for a while, I'm getting the impression that women are
>a lot more outspoken about these topics than I was raised to believe.
>Since you ladies seem to be in the majority here, I'll just have to
>adjust.
>
>You seem to think that men age gracefully.  This is a misconception.
>We may call it what it is -- bald is bald -- but that does not mean we
>like it.
>
>I still think I look basically ok, but I don't get the 'looks' I once
>got when I was 10 - 15 years younger.
>
>I feel so invisible at times.  I've overheard women complain about
>this, that after a certain age they feel like no one looks at them,
>like they are invisible.  But guys feel that way, too.  They just
>don't talk about it a lot.
>
>That's something I appreciate about this list.  It's OK to mention
>these things.
>
>--Panther, who doesn't want to write another snippet today.
 
 
<coming out of her lurk>
 
See, in society, it's Ok for a man to go bald, get grey hair, and those
crow's feet around the eyes it's called maturing, and G-d knows plenty
of actors eat it up, Sean Connery just to point out one guy who's like
100 and still gorgeous...
 
Women on the other hand, are expected to have the same color hair, if
their hair line recedes get the football helmet hair-don't, and crow's
feet are a sign to see the plastic surgeon..
 
Yes, most men in society who are balding do not get the same look and
gawks from women they used to, but hey, women are usually the ones on
display....makeup, hair gunk that sorta stuff etc.
 
Also depends on how a man is balding...IMHO Mr. Bergman's receding hair
line is MEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW  well..ummm I really love the
way a man looks with his hair like that...don't know why....it's a kink
};)
 
So don't be discouraged....there are women out there that do think a
little less hair is something to shake their groove thing
at....ummm<blush>
 
 Mindy
<back to her lurk>
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: RE: WatchAD: American Thanksgiving
 
On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I feel a little lonely this year because my mom can't make it
: tomorrow; she's out of the country at the moment.  But maybe I can
: make a special dinner for me and my roommate.  He's not very close to
: his family so maybe I can be a substitute.  He's really become *my*
: family in the past couple of years.
:
: Here's wishing everyone a pleasant weekend and to my American
: listsibs, Happy Thanksgiving!
 
I saw this and had to add my own two cents.
 
This time of year is pretty dreary for me.  I haven't spoken to my dad
or brother much in the past 20 years.  My mom left us when I was young
and then died later.
 
So Thanksgiving has long been a day to endure, a day on which, if I'm
honest with myself, I just try to not miss my mother too much.
 
But this year, my roommate surprised me.  He cooked us a dinner, part
traditional and part sort of new-agey -- a dinner like us, I guess.
 
Before my mom left, she used to have me and my brother make a list of
things to be thankful for -- much as Wolf does now.
 
Well, for the first time in a long while, I feel like I have something
to put on that list.  I thank whatever deity listens to these things for
my roommate.  He has become everything to me -- a combination of a
'mother' and a 'brother.' Definitely my best friend.
 
And I thank you WatchAD listsibs for listening to me.
 
 --Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:48:20 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Gray Hair and Other Signs of Aging
 
   On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, tracy l <[email protected]> wrote:
 
: > I guess we're all adults, here, and everything, but some of you
: > ladies are enough to make a guy go beet red, what with all your talk
: > about where the gray hairs are showing up!
:
: <snip>
:
: Come on, Panther, lighten up and let your hair down <bg>.  This is a
: very friendly list.  You can tell us anything you like.  No need to
: fear a few gray hairs and a broader forehead.  Besides it probably
: gives you a look of intelligence and maturity.  Wish we women could
: age as gracefully.
:
: What about you, Wolf?  Getting a little gray and bare up there?  Don't
: be shy.  Tell us.
 
Well, I guess I can join this thread, since you asked.  I'll just have
to do my snippet later after I think it over. :)
 
I was almost as surprised as Panther was at some of the blunt discussion
on this list.  I have known some women who've been willing to be this
explicit in conversation around me, but not a lot.  It's really a breath
of fresh air when I find this level of openness.
 
I'm closing in on 30 and starting to notice some changes, too.  I still
have hair, lots of it actually.  I wear it to my shoulders but
have been considering cutting it as I approach the big 3-0.  I wear it
pulled back in a ponytail half the time, anyway, like a lot of guys do
as they get a little older.
 
But the other day I got a bit of a shock.  You know how when you look in
the mirror to shave [or whatever], you don't always really *see*
yourself?  Well, I hadn't really been *looking* and then all of a sudden
I was like startled to see a couple gray hairs at the edges of my
hairline.  And my hairline is doing that inverted 'V' thing at the
temples.  I didn't exactly freak or anything but I had one of those
moments when I realized that after a few years of having a LOT of hair,
I was coming up on losing it.
 
I don't feel too bad about it.  I think I look about as good as I
ever did.  IF I ever did.
 
I don't know whether I date less because of I'm less interesting to look
at or because I'm less interested in looking.
 
(But that's another topic, and I plan to write only one snippet, so I'll
stop there.)
 
I can't really report any gray hairs in any .. um .. other places, yet.
;)
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:59:46 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: gray hair and other signs of aging
 
: Panther -
:
: ROTFL yet again!  ::turning to other female members of list::  Told
: y'all I  could just about see their faces!!!!  <g>
:
: Seriously tho, just remember that with age comes wisdom, not to
: mention greater sympathy, knowledge, and (::grinning already at
: imagining Panther's  blush::) creative uses of such knowledge.  ;)
:  Okay, okay, I said serious!  So here 'tis - if the gal you meet is
: worth anything at all, she'll care more about the aforementioned
: qualities than the amount of hair on your head, or the state of any
: other part of your body.  What truly matters in a relationship doesn't
: come from the physical but from the soul -love is blind.  Take it
: from a helpless (but never *hope*less) romantic.
: ;)
:
: Grace
: (who knows the value of a good hug, true sympathy, and sincere love -
: mainly from not having any of the three in great abundance. ::sad
: smile::)
 
Grace,
 
This is wonderful to read.
 
I'm just hoping what you say is true -- that the person I might want to
have a relationship with will value those qualities and look past the
thinning hair, the loosening muscles, the lessening stamina, the
slightly sluggish ... um ... circulation.
 
Not that I doubt your word entirely.  It's just that the person I'm
thinking of pursuing actually came out and *said* quite plainly that as
far as they were concerned, attraction required the physical component,
not just the inner qualities.  At the time, they were talking about my
interest in someone else, saying that I might feel less attracted if
they weren't conventionally good-looking.
 
So the person didn't say it about *me* but I rather took it to heart.
 
I'm not sure that this person is quite as mature as they would need to
be to deal with the aging issue. And I'm not so sure I want to find out.
I'm not sure I want to go through any more emotional shocks in my life.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:23:21 EST
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: gray hair and other signs of aging
 
Panther wrote:
 
<<Grace,
 
This is wonderful to read.
 
I'm just hoping what you say is true -- that the person I might want
have a relationship with will value those qualities and look past the
thinning hair, the loosening muscles, the lessening stamina, the
slightly sluggish ... um ... circulation. >>
 
::grinning *very* evilly (and entirely teasing)::  I ..... won't say it.
;)
 
<<  Not that I doubt your word entirely.  It's just that the person I'm
thinking of pursuing actually came out and *said* quite plainly that as
far as they were concerned attraction required the physical component,
not just the inner qualities.  At the time, they were talking about my
interest in someone else, saying that I might feel less attracted if
they weren't conventionally good-looking.  >>
 
::sigh::  Yeah, I can see where you're coming from ... I think, in all
honesty, that yes physical attraction is a part of Attraction, but it's
not always a given *what* is attractive to *whom*.  For instance, I
can't see Brad Pitt as a heartthrob no matter *how* hard I try, even
though a friend in CA went thru a huge phase with him as her ultimate
dream-guy (e.g.: "Interview w/ a Vampire" - it was actually more fun to
watch her reaction to Pitt than the movie itself!  <g>).  On the other
hand, some men who are not what would be considered 'classically'
handsome are drop-dead gorgeous to me (and other ladies) - Peter
Wingfield of 'Highlander', Scott Glenn, Lance Hendriksen of 'Millenium',
Anthony S. Head of BtVS, Callum Keith Rennie (sp?) and David Marciano
from 'due South'.  And for me personally, I do tend to gravitate
towards older men almost as a rule because they seem to be more  mature
in many ways, more experienced and therefore understanding  about many
things.  And in some ways, that quality also becomes part  of the
physical attraction.  And also, so much is "to each his/her own" - some
men prefer blondes over brunettes, which means that said friend in LA
got more attention from some guys than I did but that didn't mean I was
unattractive in general.
 
<< I'm not sure that this person is quite as mature as they would need
to be to deal with the aging issue. And I'm not so sure I want to find
out.  I'm not sure I want to go through any more emotional shocks in my
life. >>
 
Again, I totally understand.  But I am once again going to throw in
personal belief (albeit a lot more philosophical this time) and hope it
helps.  I, as I said, am a romantic.  Part of that is because I truly
believe that there are souls we have lived with before and are linked to
on many different levels - one of which being Love.  When you find the
right person, it will BE the right person: the one you are meant to be
with.  And when that happens, every- thing will fall into place and this
whole issue will be moot.  Life is full of chance, of risks and rewards
- and you can't have one without the other. Unless you try with this
person, you'll never know - and if it doesn't work out, then that's not
the person you're meant to be with.  But the most important thing, what
it comes back to, is this: before you can be happy with anyone else, you
must be happy with yourself.  Believe me - I'm *still* working on it!
<g>
 
::supportive hug::
 
Later!
 
Grace
 
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:40:02 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Gray Hair and Other Signs of Aging
 
: >On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Panther wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: > You seem to think that men age gracefully.  This is a misconception.
: > We may call it what it is -- bald is bald -- but that does not mean
: > we like it.  I still think I look basically OK, but I don't get the
: > 'looks' I once got when I was 10 - 15 years younger.
: >
: > I feel so invisible at times.  I've overheard women complain about
: > this, that after a certain age they feel like no one looks at them,
: > like they are invisible.  But guys feel that way, too.  They just
: > don't talk about it a lot.  That's something I appreciate about this
: > list.  It's OK to mention these things.
 
[snip
 
: On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Mindy Allison wrote:
:
: <coming out of her lurk>
:
: See, in society, it's OK for a man to go bald, get grey hair, and
: those crow's feet around the eyes it's called maturing, and G-d knows
: plenty of actors eat it up, Sean Connery just to point out one guy
: who's like 100 and still gorgeous...
 
: [snip]
 
: So don't be discouraged....there are women out there that do think a
: little less hair is something to shake their groove thing at ...
: ummm<blush>
 
I so wish you guys could talk to my roommate!
 
He's been really down on himself lately and won't talk about what's up
with him.  He doesn't try to ask anybody out.  I think he's worried that
just because he's over 30 or something that the women won't be
interested.
 
And he won't talk to *me* about it, even though I'm, like, his best
friend.  I think he's bought the social convention that guys just aren't
supposed to talk to each other and it is driving me abso-freakin-lutely
nuts!
 
I used to try to encourage him but the more I pushed the more he
resisted, so I gave up on it.
 
He doesn't seem to realize that he's attractive.  I mean, *I* can see
it; why can't *he*?
 
He may be about a decade older but he is way more attractive than I'll
ever be. Age has so little to do with attractiveness!
 
And you are *so* right about Sean Connery!  He's like in his 60s or
maybe he's 70?  And he's like droolworthy! <blush>
 
Brad Pitt should *wish* to look that good!
 
But I can't tell my roomie all this, or he'll get nervous about me, and
then he'll clam up even more than he already does!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:29:08 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places [Was Gray Hair and Other
Signs of Aging]
 
: On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Mindy Allison wrote:
 
: [snip]
:
: So don't be discouraged....there are women out there that do think a
: little less hair is something to shake their groove thing at ...
: ummm<blush>
 
: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I so wish you guys could talk to my roommate!
:
: He's been really down on himself lately and won't talk about what's up
: with him.  He doesn't try to ask anybody out.  I think he's worried
: that just because he's over 30 or something that the women won't be
: interested.
 
[snip]
 
Well, Wolf, I don't know what to tell you about your roommate, since I'm
having a different kind of problem. (Although it's sort of tangentially
related.)
 
My roommate, who is ten times more energetic than I am, seems to always
be pushing me to go out a lot, find a ladyfriend.
 
Well, there are a couple of problems with this for me.
 
First of all, I'm really sort of a loner.  I really like to be alone a
lot of the time, stay home and catch up on my reading sometimes.
Luckily my roommate has to work on his studies so even though he's a
talker, I do get some quiet at home.
 
(Wolf, maybe this is the deal with *your* roommate ... but I don't
know...)
 
And second, I guess I'll have to come clean here.  And I guess it's OK
to mention this on this particular list.
 
Although I do find women attractive, at the moment I'm really more
interested in my roommate.
 
I know -- it really sort of surprised me, too.  It kind of snuck up on
Me over the past couple of years.
 
Looking back over my life, I realize now that I shouldn't be too
surprised by this -- I guess it was always a possibility for me, just
one I never really pursued.
 
But this guy!  Well, I don't want to get into the personal stuff right
now ...
 
It's just that ...
 
Well, I have the feeling that women are a bit more mature than men are
about accepting a less than perfect-looking lovers.  Well, maybe I'm
over-generalizing, because apparently Wolf seemed to find at least one
70-year-old guy droolworthy.
 
But I'm no Sean Connery.
 
And even though my roommate clearly likes me, he seems to do all of his
'drooling' about women.
 
And figuring all this out at my age is pretty daunting.
 
I don't like to talk about this very much, and I don't think I could
handle talking to him about it.  He may be open-minded about this stuff
intellectually, but sometimes his intellect doesn't match up with his
emotions.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:24:27 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places [Was Gray Hair and
Other Signs of Aging]
 
: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: [snip]
 
: And second, I guess I'll have to come clean here.  And : to mention this on this particular list.
:
: Although I do find women attractive, at the moment I'm really more
: interested in my roommate.
:
: I know -- it really sort of surprised me, too.  It kind of snuck up on
: me over the past couple of years.
 **
 
Oh, Panther, you are *so* not alone in this.
 
I've never really ...
 
Well, it's always been a lot easier for me to get close to women, so
this has never really come up before.
 
But my roommate has become my family.  And as prickly as he can be at
times and as different as we are, we really get along great, at least
most of the time.  We do everything together ... except ...
 
Anyway, I recently realized that just like the guy on the show [see
I*can* get this on topic <g>] -- I have fallen in love with my roommate.
 
I know that a lot of guys get the willies just *thinking* about
the*idea* of 2 guys being in love, let alone expressing that love
physically.  (To be honest, the idea makes me a little nervous, too.)
 
So I can just imagine what he'd feel if I mentioned feeling remotely
like that.  I don't want him to feel nervous or bad that he doesn't
return the feelings.
 
That's part of why I used to encourage him to go out on dates with some
of the women we've met. He seems so lonely sometimes and I love him so
much that I just want him to be happy.
 
And that's not as unselfish as it may sound.  When he's happy, he has
this SMILE.  He has a smile so beautiful, so bright, so gleaming -- that
just by smiling, he could obliterate night's darkness!  I would
do*anything* to see that smile!
 
Well, anyway, Panther, I just wanted to let you know that you are not
alone.  Wanted to offer my support.  Good luck.
 
I guess there are a lot of people out there [maybe here on this list]
who have been in similar situations.
 
Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a same-
sex friend?  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
 
--Wolf
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:56:43 +0000
To: [email protected]
From: Michelle <[email protected]>
Subject: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places [A little playful relief]
 
>I guess there are a lot of people out there [maybe here on this list]
>who have been in similar situations.
>
>Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a
>same-sex friend?  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
>
>
>--Wolf
>
 
Okay Wolf, here's my contribution.
 
It's kind of an on-going experience actually, since she has no idea. A
couple of years ago, when I was supposedly too young to know about such
things, an acquaintance of mine suddenly became a very close friend
through an English project we were assigned to do. We spent almost all
of our days together, and quite a few nights as well, and discovered we
had a lot in common. We were understanding each other on a level that
was beyond friendship.
 
Anyway, last summer, my family and I moved to South Africa, leaving our
friends behind. Despite the enormous phone bill, we called each other
all the time (she's not on-line, so electronic communication was out of
the question), wrote hundreds of letters, etc. Before I left, she handed
me a tape that she'd made to keep me occupied on the plane. At the end,
amidst much crying, she said she loved me.
 
When I came back to Britain this January, there were a great many hugs
and "I love you's, and I started to realise that I wanted to read more
into every little gesture she made, every word she said. She makes me
feel really special, and she's practically part of my family. I think
the final straw was when she told me about a guy she met at work, and I
could actually feel myself getting jealous.
 
She knows I'm a little quirky, that I'm into slash, that I have a
somewhat morbid outlook on life...I can tell her anything, except how I
feel. If I do, our friendship's going to change.
 
Best of luck with your roommate, Wolf, (and Panther), I can understand
your nervousness guys. This is the first time I can remember ever
feeling this way, and I have no idea what's going to happen. It's a
scary world out there.
 
--  Michelle W.
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 98 19:33:19 -0700
From: Ann  <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
Wolf wrote:
 
>I guess there are a lot of people out there [maybe here on this list]
>who have been in similar situations.
>
>Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a
>same-sex friend?  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
 
I did. :) I fell for a fan friend, and it turned out great. We took it
slow, and I definitely recommend that. We went to dance clubs that were
gay-friendly, then to gay dance clubs. They we both wanted to dance, so
felt fine dancing with each other. It was fun to kind of 'play' at it,
neither one making any big moves or demands, just testing out how it
felt.
 
To make my long story short, we eased on into a kiss, and then more. :)
And now we've been together (we date that from the first time we made
love -- well, at that point, I'll admit, it was lust as well!) for over
11 years.
 
Slow and steady wins the race. I'll be thinking good thoughts for you!
Maybe a nice restaurant with a gay-friendly atmosphere, and a fair gay
clientele?
 
Ann
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:20:55 EST
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places [Was Gray Hair and
  Other Signs of Aging]
 
On Wed, Dec 2, 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
:Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a
:same-sex friend?  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
 
Hey Wolf, just thought I'd answer ya.  I swore up and *down* that I was
het, 1000%!  And then I got stuck in the hospital.  Not good man, lemme
tell ya. The only perk (if any) was that I was away from my family.  I
liked being alone, and often asked them to stay away.  <G> Okay, so I'm
strange.
 
But I digress.  One day, this beautiful female walked by my door.  I
swore she looked *exactly* like that chick from that space show.  I
can't remember the character name, but people on the list call her 38 of
D.  <g>  Anyway, she walked by my room, then a few minutes later she
came back when she heard me growling at my lap top.  (Hey, I have a room
reserved at the hospital, so of course they let me have my LT, complete
with modem.)  Now, before I go any further, ya gotta understand that I
*hate* meeting new people.  I tend to like being by myself, and rarely
do I make an attempt at starting a conversation, but this lady was
different.  I didn't mind her there at all.  <sigh>  I should have known
it was the beginning of the end.  That was almost two months ago.
 
We became fast friends, and when she found out that my at-the-time- now-
*EX*-boyfriend hit me, she went ballistic.  I felt sorry for Micky.
NOT! Anyway, Kel and I are having a grand time.  I'm hitting some rough
spots now, and she's helping me through them.  Oh yeah, and she moved in
with me over Halloween weekend.  <g>
 
Wolf, trust me.  It can happen.  <looking at Kel>  I'm living proof!
 
 
Tigershan
 
Grinning toothily
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thurs, 3 Dec 1998 17:33:46 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places [Was Gray Hair and
           Other Signs of Aging]
 
: On Wed, Dec 2, 1998, Wolf wrote
:
: : Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a
: : same-sex friend?
 
:  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
 
: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 [email protected] wrote:
 
: [snip]
 
: Anyway, Kel and I are having a grand time.  I'm hitting some rough
: spots now, and she's helping me through them.  Oh yeah, and she moved
: in with me over Halloween weekend.  <g>
:
: Wolf, trust me.  It can happen.  <looking at Kel>  I'm living proof!
 
Just wanted to thank you for attesting to the possibilities.  And to
offer congratulations on your new relationship!  Good luck, guys!
And thanks for opening up.  It helps.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:43:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Mindy <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
> Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a
> same-sex friend?  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
>
> --Wolf
>
 
<coming out of lurk yet again for a furry critter...>
 
I thought I was het, well, it was when I was 15 so I guess I wasn't so
sure really...but I was dammit :).
 
I fell in love with my very best friend.  She was wonderful, strange
thing about it is...we were roomies in the dorm at school. (BOARDING
SCHOOL RULES BTW };)
 
We did everything together and had a grand ole time, till someone
snuck in some beer....well, teenagers being what they are, we (about
10 of us) ended up playing Truth or Dare...and things got out of hand,
and we ended up in bed together...it was wondrous...till the morning
when sobriety set in...  we freaked out thinking one was gonna haul
off and deck the other...we sat down and talked about it and ended up
having a 4 year relationship :)
 
<back into lurk ...>
 
Mindy (who can't resist small furry cutey animals };)
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thurs, 03 Dec 1998 17:59:38 PST
From: "tracy l" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Watchman: Love in Unexpected Places
 
Panther wrote:
 
<snip>
 
> You seem to think that men age gracefully.  This is a
>misconception.  We may call it what it is -- bald is bald -- but
>that does not mean we like it.  I still think I look basically ok,
>but I don't get the 'looks' I once got when I was 10 - 15 years
>younger
 
 
Hi Panther,
 
Sorry, it's taken so long for me to write back.  I came down with a
nasty cold and just felt well enough to read the over 400 messages in
my  Inbox.
 
External looks are not that important if you care for someone.  I can
relay a personal experience.  Many years ago, I met this young man who
was not what most people would call "handsome".  He had a birth defect
and a wandering eye.  But when he smiled, his whole face lit up.  And
he  had a generous nature, was considerate and had a great sense of
humor.   He was easy to talk to.  Soon, I didn't even notice his face
but looked  at the whole person.  And the whole person was beautiful.
 
I think that when you get to know and like a person, you tend to
overlook the physical imperfections.
 
I plan to attend this rally for our favorite show, the Watchman.  Why
don't you and your roommate come too?  It should be a lot of fun. How
about it?
 
Tracy
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thurs, 3 Dec 1998, 9:05 p.m.
 
"Aawww, maan!"
 
"Whatsa matter, Chief?"
 
"Well, Jim, I just got an e-mail from an 'e-pal' of mine.  Seems there's
been a big hassle among the Watchman fans.  I *hate* it when people who
are usually so supportive of each other start sniping at one another.  I
know it has to do with stress and frustration because they're having so
much trouble getting the show back on the air, but ..."
 
"Are they still planning on having that secret rally in LA in January?"
 
"Yeah.  ... Hey! How'd *you* know about that?  Only the fans on the net
are supposed to be in on that."
 
"Well ... let's just say that I have my sources... And besides, how
did*you* know?"
 
"Umm.. Well .. um .. my e-pal belongs to this discussion list and she
tells me stuff."
 
"Uhh, what discussion list?"
 
"You know, most fandoms have discussion lists through e-mail where fans
can discuss the TV shows and the fanfiction that people write. My .. um
.. friend belongs.  I get to find out stuff."
 
"Are you thinking of joining any of these lists, Chief, like say, for
The X-Files or The Watchman"?
 
"Um .. maybe .. when I get the time, Jim.  Why?"
 
"Well, maybe you can find out how to join one and you could maybe keep
me filled in."
 
"I didn't know you were interested in this stuff, Jim."
 
"Well, I wasn't really, until I overheard a couple of the secretaries
discussing some of the fanfiction they'd read.  It sounds like some of
the fan writers do a good job.  So I just thought ..."
 
"What stories did they mention, Jim?"
 
"I can't remember the titles or anything, Chief.  I just remember some
of the more interesting plot points and thought maybe there was some
place to find these stories.  The secretaries mentioned things called
zines."
 
"You know, some of those stories are a little ... um ... risque'."
 
"Risque' Chief?"
 
"You know, like Mulder doing Scully.  Pretty explicit stuff."
 
"Yeah, one of the stories I heard somebody talking about sounded a
little like that.  I even heard about .. no, you won't believe it..."
 
"Believe what, Jim?"
 
"There are even stories about Mulder and Krycek.  Can you believe that?"
 
"Well, Krycek *did* kiss Mulder last season, Jim.  I guess some writers
just sort of ran with it."
 
"Doesn't the idea .. sort of .. bother you?"
 
"Bother me?"
 
"Yeah, you know, 2 guys?"
 
"Me?!  No way, man!  Though I sort of think Skinner would be a better
choice for Mulder, don't you?"
 
"But ...  what about Scully?!"
 
"Well, Skinner would be a good choice for Scully, too, come to think of
it.
 
"In fact, I heard about a story in which Scully and Mulder do Skinner
in Scully's kitchen."
 
"Howcome you never told me about any of this stuff before, Chief?"
 
"Well, I didn't think you'd be interested, Jim. I've heard it
gets*really* explicit and sometimes a little .. um .. kinky.  And you
don't
really like it when I talk about .. um .. sex and stuff --"
 
"That's not it!  I just don't like you leering at me when I go on dates.
I don't give a rat's ass about what you *read*!"
 
"OK, chill!  I didn't say *I* read it ... well, OK, I've read a couple
of the stories.  My .. um friend sent them to me."
 
"Well, maybe you could get your .. friend .. to recommend a couple of
Watchman stories"
 
"I'll ask her next time I do my e-mail -- OK?  What kind do you want?"
 
"Something with a plot and maybe some humor. -- I don't know, whatever's
good."
 
"How about a little romance, Jim?"
 
"Huh?  What?  Oh.  'Watchman' romance, Chief?"
 
"Interested, Jim?"
 
"Sure, why not."
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:17:46 -0800
From: "GRWC" <[email protected]>
Subject: Love in unexpected places
To: [email protected]
 
Usually by the time I've thought through my position on something, the
thread has long since died.  It's true in this case, too, but I suspect
the question is still of interest to Wolf, who posed it, and to Panther,
who's in a similar situation.  And besides, what I have to say is a
little different.
 
Love in unexpected places?  A bit over two years ago, my mother flew to
Florida to take are of Sarah, a friend with cancer, and fell in love.
Several months later, Sarah died, so you can imagine my mom went through
a  mourning period.  My dad, mostly happily married to Mom for over 25
years, was also saddened by this turn of events.  When they announced
their separation, my sis *said* she was fine, but for a while there, she
was vomiting every time she had to leave the house.  (I was the only one
not surprised and/or distressed.)
 
Sarah was not close to her family, didn't really have anyone in her
life, but she died knowing someone loved her.  As for the rest of us --
we go on.  My sis stopped vomiting and got a promotion.  Mom and Dad are
still friends; ironically, Mom has cancer now and  Dad takes care of her
when she has chemo treatments.
 
What made Mom's coming out hard on so many people is that she grew up
when people simply didn't question their sexuality unless they couldn't
avoid it.  The Watchman's dad (to bring this semi-on-topic :) spoke of
how he worked hard because "that's what men did."  My mom did the female
version.  When she finally had to deal with it, she already had a
relationship, and found herself caught between loyalty to herself and
loyalty to the man who had been so important in her life.
 
Wolf, Panther, you are fortunate enough to be facing this when you and
your roommates are free to do what you have to for your own happiness
without hurting anyone else.  This time of your lives won't last
forever.
 
Your roommates could find other loves, but there's even worse (TPTB
forbid).  I don't remember if you guys said what your rommates each did
for a living (itchy deleted finger), but even if they are not in high-
risk professions, they or you could get run over by a beer truck
tomorrow and die with too much left unsaid.
 
Panther, Wolf -- you are free as my mom was not.
 
Take a chance on love.
 
(Guess I owe an ObWatchAD, huh?)
 
 
--Gina Collum
Keeper of Joe's table legs
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:45:04 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: [snip]
:
: Although I do find women attractive, at the moment I'm really more
: interested in my roommate.
 
: I know -- it really sort of surprised me, too.  It kind of snuck up on
: me over the past couple of years.
:
: ***
::
: On Thurs, 3 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: Oh, Panther, you are *so* not alone in this.
 
: [snip]
 
: Anyway, I recently realized that just like the guy on the show [see I
: *can* get this on topic <g>] -- I have fallen in love with my   :
roommate.
: [snip]
 
: I guess there are a lot of people out there [maybe here on this list]
: who have been in similar situations.
:
: Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a same-
: sex friend?
 
:  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
 
After reading the wonderfully positive stories about listsibs finding
Ms. Right or Ms. Maybe, I started to feel wistful.
 
My few, fleeting attempts at this were not exactly *failures* in any
absolute sense, but they were not quite the success stories described so
far.
 
I was in my 20s when I realized that I was just plain head over heels
with a high school buddy's girlfriend (who was on the verge of breaking
up with said buddy). I eventually did tell her how I felt and we flirted
and cuddled but we were infinitely shy and nervous about the whole deal.
 
My life was like a blues song.  I would occasionally try to stop the
pain with alcohol.  (Wrote some bad stories and poetry [But that's OK
-- any writing is practice, right?])
 
She vacillated between writing letters to suggest that we live together
As lovers and then skittering away.  Eventually she married some guy and
Moved out of the state.
 
I was aware that I was probably bi, but I was so fragile that I
eventually just squashed that part of myself down for nearly 20 years.
 
BUT
 
Wolf, Panther --
 
If I could go back, I would NEVER have avoided telling her.  I would
never have missed out on the opportunity to experience what we did
experience and to learn as much as I could from the life I was living.
 
Isn't the purpose of life to learn all we can while we're here?
 
Well, for me it is.
 
And for that reason, if I could go back, I would NEVER have squashed
down this part of who I am.  It didn't 'fix' anything, it didn't make
anything better.  Suppressing who I am has only led to bouts of
Depression.
 
So guys, even though my experience was not as positive, I think the
moral is the same -- don't let anything get in the way of expressing the
love you feel.
 
You may not know how it's going to turn out, but we never do, anyway.
Your friend could say no, but he could say maybe or even yes.  If you
don't ask, he may say nothing at all.
 
And then you'll know nothing at all.
 
--Marmot
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:46:07 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
I decided to take this off-list because I just started feeling like
discussing my feelings for my roommate was just getting too personal for
a semi-public forum.
 
And you seem to be about the same age as my roommate so you might be
able to ... I don't know ... give me advice or insight or something.
 
The ladies on the list are pretty much telling me to 'go for it,' to
just tell him.  They seem to be so optimistic, so sure that it will all
turn out all right.
 
But my life, my experiences just don't lead me to have such a rosy
outlook.  The important people in my life have all left me and I can't
help being afraid that he'll be next -- especially if I spook him.
 
It's getting so I'm starting to close down around him.  I snap at him
more and try to take more time off to go off by myself.  I feel like
he's too close but not close enough.
 
Are you having the same problem or have you started to work this out
with your friend?
 
Keep me updated.  Maybe if you work this out, you can give me pointers
-- guy-to-guy.
 
Thanks,
 
-- Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:10:27 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A suggestion [was Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places]
 
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: It's getting so I'm starting to close down around him.  I snap at him
: more and try to take more time off to go off by myself.  I feel like
: he's too close but not close enough.
:
: Are you having the same problem or have you started to work this out
: with your friend?
:
: Keep me updated.  Maybe if you work this out, you can give me pointers
: -- guy-to-guy.
 
Panther,
 
Sorry, about not getting back to you sooner, man, but RL has a way of
grabbing my attention.
 
I do know what you mean here, about feeling 'too close but not close
enough.' Just close enough to feel the heat but not close enough to
release it.
 
There are times when I just know I'm going to spontaneously combust!
 
At the moment, I don't have anything sage to tell you, no real advice.
 
But I was wondering.  You know that rally in January to get The Watchman
back on the air?
 
I'm thinking of trying to get my roommate to go to that.  He likes the
show and might be willing.
 
Are you and your roomie considering making the trip?  If so, maybe the 4
of us could get together.  Maybe we could help each other out, give each
other's friends a clue.  What do you think?
 
We've got a month to plan this so you have time to think it over.
Let me know.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:20:58 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
: On Wed, Dec 2, 1998, Wolf wrote
:
:: :Anyone else out there, formerly het [in behavior] who fell for a
:: same-sex friend?
 
::  What did you do?  How did it turn out?
:
 
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 Shan wrote:
 
: [snip]
 
: Wolf, trust me.  It can happen.  <looking at Kel>  I'm living proof!
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
:
:   On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Ann wrote:
:
: I did. :) I fell for a fan friend, and it turned out great. We took it
: slow, and I definitely recommend that.
 
: [snip]
 
:  It was fun to kind of 'play' at it, neither one making any big moves
: or demands, just testing out how it felt.
:
: [snip]
:
: Slow and steady wins the race. I'll be thinking good thoughts for you!
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
:    On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Mindy wrote:
:
: [snip]
:
:  ended up playing Truth or Dare...and things got out of hand, and we
: ended up in bed together...it was wondrous...till the morning when
: sobriety set in...  we freaked out thinking one was gonna haul off and
: deck the other...we sat down and talked about it and ended up having a
: 4 year relationship :)
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
:    On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Michelle wrote:
:
: Okay Wolf, here's my contribution. It's kind of an on-going experience
: actually, since she has no idea.
 
: [snip]
:
: and I started to realise that I wanted to read more into every little
: gesture she made, every word she said. She makes me feel really
: special, and she's practically part of my family.  I think the final
: straw was when she told me about a guy she met at work, and I could
: actually feel myself getting jealous.
 
: [snip]
:
: I can tell her anything, except how I feel. If I do, our friendship's
: going to change.
:
: Best of luck with your roommate, Wolf, (and Panther), I can understand
: your nervousness guys. This is the first time I can remember ever
: feeling this way, and I have no idea what's going to happen. It's a
: scary world out there.
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Marmot wrote:
 
: After reading the wonderfully positive stories about listsibs finding
: Ms. Right or Ms. Maybe, I started to feel wistful.
 
: [snip]
 
: She vacillated between writing letters to suggest that we live
: together as lovers and then skittering away.  Eventually she married
: some guy and moved out of the state.
:
: I was aware that I was probably bi, but I was so fragile that I
: eventually just squashed that part of myself down for nearly 20 years.
 
[snip]
 
: So guys, even though my experience was not as positive, I think the
: moral is the same -- don't let anything get in the way of expressing
: the love you feel.
:
: You may not know how it's going to turn out, but we never do, anyway.
: Your friend could say no, but he could say maybe or even yes.  If you
: don't ask, he may say nothing at all.
:
: And then you'll know nothing at all.
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Listsibs,
 
(I hope I snipped enough of these posts for the dictates of netiquette.)
 
Anyway, I just wanted to write and say thank you to all of you -- Shan,
Ann, Mindy, Michelle, and Marmot -- for offering your stories in support
of those of us who love in secret.
 
It takes a lot of guts to reveal so much, more guts than I have
sometimes.
 
I'm wondering if this is a gender thing.  Is it easier for women to talk
about these things than it is for men?
 
Or is it a generational thing?  Is it easier for those under 30 than for
those over 30?
 
Or is it just more difficult for me?
 
Because even though I've faced a lot of threatening things in my life,
when in the military and while on the job, this one is one of the most
threatening.
 
I'm a lot like Joe on The Watchman (to bring this on-topic [I hated
writing the snippet]).  He seems to be the 'strong silent type,' sort of
a Gary Cooper kind of guy.  That's the romanticized version.  Really
he's the stoic, repressed type.  Intelligent but non-verbal.  Or not-
easily-verbal.  That's me.
 
I also want to thank Wolf for opening up on this list, also.  At least I
know there's another *guy* out there going through this and willing to
open up.  It helps a lot.
 
It's hard enough, at my age, to realize that my sexual preferences are
not what I once thought they were, but when most of the testifying here
has been done by women, I started to wonder about my masculinity, as
well.  So it's comforting to hear from the estrogen-deficient :)
 
Again, thanks guys.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Sat, 5 Dec 1998, 7:10 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim!"
 
"Yeah, Chief?"
 
"You know the rally for 'The Watchman' we were talking about the other
day?"
 
"Yeah, the 'secret' rally in January that supposedly only people on the
net know about, Chief?"
 
"I *told* you, I got the information from an e-mail friend.  Anyway, she
was wondering whether I was going to go.  What do you think, Jim, do you
want to go?  Might be fun."
 
"You want to travel the length of 3 states, one of which is really the
length of two of ours, in the middle of fuckin' winter, to go to a one-
day event for a *TV show*? Are you out of your mind, Sandburg?"
 
"But Jim! I know how much you identify with the guys on that show.
And there is the possibility that the show might be renewed for
another season if we show enough support for it. Besides, we haven't had
a vacation in a long time.  We could spend a few extra days down there
in California. Winter in LA is a bit warmer than winter in Cascade, Jim.
And it just might be *fun*!  You remember fun, eh Jim?"
 
"Well, I'll think about it."
 
"Ah, Jim! that's great, man!  Maybe we can meet my e-mail friend down
there!"
 
"Sandburg, do you even really *know* her?  How do you know it's safe to
meet her?  You don't even know she is who she says she is.  I mean, it's
one thing to get stories from her or TV show gossip, but ..."
 
"Well, Jim, *I* am on e-mail and I'm a good guy.  And sometimes you can
just tell that someone is OK.  Besides we'll be with about 200 other
fans in public.  If we meet her and get a bad feeling, we can always
just take off."
 
"I guess... So why do you want to meet her in the first place?  You
aren't having some sort of on-line romance or anything, are you?"
 
"Well, no actually.  We just 'talk.' About stuff.  She's been confiding
in me about her feelings for her best friend.  She's worried they won't
be reciprocated. I just offer her support, sometimes."
 
"That's nice of you, Chief.  You sure that's all you offer her?"
 
"Look, Ellison, I *told* you there wasn't anything else to it.  Besides,
where do you get off criticizing my social life?!  I'm a sentient adult.
I can make my own decisions and my own friends.  You are acting way too
protective for the situation, Jim.  You aren't my father, big brother or
... or ..."
 
"Or what?"
 
"Well, the last person I saw get into all this much insinuation was the
girlfriend of one of my students -- Now *there* was an immature couple,
if ever I saw one!"
 
"You're saying I'm acting like somebody's jealous *girlfriend,* Chief?!"
 
"Somebody's immature, 18-year-old, jealous girlfriend."
 
"Look, Sandburg, no need to get insulting.  I'm just ... I don't know ..
I mean ... never mind.  If you say there's no romance, there's no
romance.  I'm sorry.  It's just that the whole anonymous friendships on
the net thing makes me nervous.  It can be perfectly OK, I know.  But
there are occasional risks..."
 
"Yeah, Jim, I know.  If it makes you feel better, I use an alias and an
account not based at school so no one can easily look up my identity.
It's a precaution."
 
"Well, OK, then.  So your friend suffers from unrequited love?  What
kind of advice do you give her?"
 
"I really don't know what advice *to* give her, Jim."
 
"What?  You've never been in that situation?"
 
"Man, are you kidding?  I'm ... uh ... let's just say that I've
definitely been in her situation.  ... But I SO haven't
figured out what to do about being *in* that situation.  How about you?
You know what to do?  What I could tell her?"
 
"'Fraid not, Chief.  Nothing sage to say, here."
 
"It sucks, man."
 
"Tell me."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:54:23 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: The Rally in January
 
Listsibs,
 
I'm trying to talk my roommate into going to the Watchman LA rally in
January. I don't know, yet, whether we actually will go but if we do, I
was thinking maybe we could carpool with someone.
 
So are there other listsibs from the Vancouver/northern Washington area
who might want to share a vehicle?
 
If so, please e-mail me off list at [email protected]
 
Thanks,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:32:40 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Follow-up question
 
 On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: If you and your roommate and Wolf and his friend can get along so
: well, then maybe there's hope for me, too.
:
: Hey, Wolf, keep us updated on your progress talking to your friend.
: Maybe if you can get talking with him, I can give it a try, too.
 
Hey, Wolf!
 
You never got back to us on this.  Any good news?
 
Don't mean to pry ... well, not too much, anyway.
 
;)
 
Have you had "that talk" with your roomie, yet?  If so, what happened?
 
If not, have you gotten any inkling at all about how he might respond?
 
You don't have to go into excruciating *details* or anything.  Just ...
well ... did you *talk*?
 
Inquiring [read 'nosy'] minds WANT TO KNOW.
 
Waiting to hear from you.
 
--Marmot
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:38:40 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: So then why ... [was When did *you*?]
 
: On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Panther wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: I love the guy, but sometimes he just seems so immature.
 
If he's so immature, why do you love him?  What is it about him that
keeps you there?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:57:28 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: The Rally in January
 
On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I'm trying to talk my roommate into going to the Watchman LA rally in
: January. I don't know yet, whether we actually will go but if we do, I
: was thinking maybe we could carpool with someone.
:
: So are there other listsibs from the Vancouver/northern Washington
: area who might want to share a vehicle?
:
: If so, please e-mail me off list at [email protected]
 
Wolf,
 
My roommate and I live in this general region and have talked about
going, but I'm not so sure I can.  Or want to.
 
I can never predict my work schedule and it's about a 2-3 day drive one
way for a one-day event, so I'm not sure that I can really afford to do
that.
 
My roommate suggested we could turn it into a vacation and God knows, we
could use one!  But I don't know...
 
The thing that really bugs me is that he is really hot on meeting this
girl down there in LA, and I just feel like I'd be in the way. Besides,
it's starting to hurt when I see him flirting with women.  He claims
they're 'just friends,' but it still bugs me...  But if we end up going,
I'll let you know and maybe we *can* carpool.  It'll help on the
expenses and it'll be great to share the driving, so we're not so
exhausted when we get there.
 
When you get there, where were you planning on staying?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: The Rally in January
 
Wolf's post asking for car-poolers reminds me of another consideration:
Where will everybody be staying once we get to LA?
 
I don't know whether I'll be going.  I might not, due to personal
reasons.  But I haven't decided, yet.
 
But to help me with my decision, I need to know where everybody's going
to be staying in LA.
 
Thanks,
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:43:34 PST
From: "tracy l" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: The Rally in January
 
Panther wrote:
 
>Where will everybody be staying once we get to LA?
>
>I don't know whether I'll be going.  I might not, due to personal
>reasons.  But I haven't decided, yet.
>
>But to help me with my decision, I need to know where everybody's
>going to be staying in LA.
 
Hi Panther,
 
Gee, it sure would be nice if you and your roomie could come.  Show
support for our favorite show.  Rumor has it that the show is in trouble
because the wrong demographics are watching, namely, women.  To have men
in the 18-49 bracket show up would be a major boost.
 
I'm staying at the main hotel but there are plenty of other
accommodations nearby, including floor space at local listsibs' home.
There is a website set up to help us and match people who need and have
accommodations.
 
I would love to meet you and your roomie.  Maybe if you want, I can VERY
discreetly try to find out how he feels about you.  Just a thought.
 
Hope to see you at the rally.
 
Tracy
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:54:03 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected] <allison>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD The Rally
 
Oh, Panther?  Please feel free to stay with me!  I'm having a Watchman
slumber party and I just have this feeling that you will *fit* right
in..so come on down!
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:35:25 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: The Rally and Slumber Party
 
 On Sun, 7 Dec 1998, allison wrote:
 
: Oh, Panther?  Please feel free to stay with me!  I'm having a Watchman
: Slumber party and I just have this feeling that you will *fit* right
: in .. so come on down!
 
Allison,
 
I truly appreciate this offer.  I don't know yet whether I'm coming, but
if I am, I'd like to stay there.  You've been very supportive of me in
earlier posts and e-mails, so I think we'll get along fine.  Do you have
room for both of us?
 
And there might be another problem ... maybe not...
 
I know that most of the list members are women and you said that you had
room for 12 people.  How ... shy ... are the people who are staying with
you?  Will they care that there might be a couple of guys at this
'slumber party' of yours?
 
I ask because frankly I've never been to a slumber party and I've
overheard some stories at work about some pretty wild stuff.  What goes
on at a slumber party and especially a Watchman slumber party?
 
Thanks,
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:06:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Allison <[email protected]>
To:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: The Rally
 
Dear Panther:
 
There is definitely room for both you and your roomie. As to what we do
at a Slumber Party?
 
Well, naturally we will be watching our favorite show, The Watchman. And
the usual popcorn poping, soda guzzling and story swapping.  It would be
very interesting to have guys participate and maybe we can put a dent in
that saying,  Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars. I'm betting we
will all have a great deal in common and will get along great!
 
Now I understand the sleeping arrangements could be a little
tricky....but I'm more than willing to let you and your roomie take the
other bedroom...that is, if you don't mind sharing a bed?  It's a king.
There are also two bathrooms.  Just one thing tho'.  Hope neither of you
smoke?  It is a non-smoking house and I also have two dogs. Not allergic
are you?
 
Well, look forward to having you, here's hoping and I have my fingers
crossed.  We all gotta get together on this thing if our show is going
to be renewed for the 1999/2000 season.  Wow, 2000!
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:17:11 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Rally
 
To Panther:
 
PS:  We only rip the clothes off of guys on alternate Wednesday's and we
are thinking of switching this practice to Monday's at 9:00!  You and
your roomie will be perfectly safe! <G>
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:55:43 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To:  allison <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Rally
 
 On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Allison wrote:
 
: Dear Panther:
:
: There is definitely room for both you and your roomie. As to what we
: do at a Slumber Party?
:
: Well, naturally we will be watching our favorite show, The Watchman.
: And the usual popcorn popping, soda guzzling and story swapping.  It
: would be very interesting to have guys participate and maybe we can
: put a dent in that saying, Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars.
: I'm betting we will all have a great deal in common and will get
: along great!
 
This sounds like a good time.  It'll be interesting, to say the least.
My roommate is likely to take notes for a paper on this, though.  Be
warned. ;)
 
: Now I understand the sleeping arrangements could be a little
: tricky....but I'm more than willing to let you and your roomie take
: the other bedroom...that is, if you don't mind sharing a bed?  It's a
: king.
 
If there are going to be so many people, I'd hate to take a whole
bedroom for just the 2 of us.  We could just sleep on the living room
floor in our sleeping bags.  But if the segregation will help people
feel more comfortable, then thanks.
 
As for sharing the bed, I'm sure it'll be OK.  We've shared close
quarters before.  So I'm sure we can handle it.
 
: There are also two bathrooms.  Just one thing tho'.  Hope neither of
: you smoke?  It is a non-smoking house and I also have two dogs. Not
: allergic are you?
 
I'm glad to hear it's a non-smoking house.  I have a rather sensitive
nose when it comes to certain pollutants.  I also seem to be allergic to
flowering plants.  I don't think I'm allergic to cats or dogs, though.
 
Again, thanks for putting us up.  I really appreciate it.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:22:07 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Rally
 
To Panther:
 
Hey, no problem!  Look forward to having you both.  I too, have a
sensitive nose and use only organic cleansers, detergent and shampoos,
even on the dogs!
 
See you in January!
 
allison, may the Watchman....watch over you.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:36:20 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To:  allison <[email protected]>
Cc:   Subject: The Rally
 
Allison,
 
I got your name and addy from the bulletin board, while looking for
places to stay in LA if I get to go to the Rally.  It says you have room
for about 12 and your place is non-smoking.
 
You seemed really open and friendly in your posts on the list, so I felt
comfortable approaching you.
 
I don't know whether my roommate will be going, but *I* would like to go
and need a place to stay.  Can you set aside places for 2 of us?  Is
there still room? When's the latest I need to let you know whether it
will be one or two of us?
 
I really hope you still have room and are willing to take us.
 
Thank you,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:42:21 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: The Rally in January
 
Hey, man, I'm sorry to do this to you, after making a big deal here and
on the list asking for a carpool, but I'm going to just opt out.
 
I want to go and all, but I don't want to hang you guys up if we don't
end up going at the last minute.
 
It's just that my roommate won't commit.  He keeps coming up with a
bunch of excuses and he's beginning to piss me off.
 
Not because of the excuses, so much.  I mean, I know he has to work and
might not able to swing the days off.  A lot of people on the list are
going through that hassle -- that and not having any money...  It's just
that he's being a real pain in the ass, lately, so I'm not so sure
I*want* to go with him at the moment.  He just blows up at every little
picky thing and ... well, he's just not being very easy to be with right
now.
 
His crankiness comes and goes, so in the long run, I know it'll be OK.
But I can't really guarantee that I'll be able to stand being cooped up
in a car with him for 3 days straight. Anyway, carpooling seemed like a
good idea at the time, but I guess it's just not a good idea.
 
Too bad, though.
 
I was looking forward to meeting you guys.
 
--Wolf
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Follow-up question
 
:    On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: If you and your roommate and Wolf and his friend can get along so
: well, then maybe there's hope for me, too.
:
: Hey, Wolf, keep us updated on your progress talking to your friend.
:
: Maybe if you can get talking with him, I can give it a try, too.
 
   On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Marmot wrote:
 
:  [snip]
 
: Hey, Wolf!
:
: Have you had "that talk" with your roomie, yet?  If so, what happened?
:
: If not, have you gotten any inkling at all about how he might respond?
 
 
No real news, Marmot et al.
 
I don't want to go into great detail, but I'm a little pissed at him at
the moment so I haven't really felt like talking.
 
I still don't feel ready to open up, anyway, yet.  It's way too scary.
 
I have gotten the impression from occasional comments he's made in
conversation that he's less put off by stuff like slash than I thought
he would be.  This doesn't really say anything about how he feels
about*me* but it does tell me that he's a little more open-minded on
this
topic than I thought.
 
But I can't talk to him right now.  It seems like every time I open my
mouth, he snaps at me.
 
Thanks for expressing interest.  Yes you *are* nosy, but so am I.  :)
 
--Wolf
 
Do I have to do a snippet now?  I really don't want to; I'm kind of
depressed.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:55:00 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected] To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: So then why ... [was When did *you*?]
 
: On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: [snip]
:
: I love the guy, but sometimes he just seems so immature.
 
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: If he's so immature, why do you love him?  What is it about him that
: keeps you there?
 
 Ah, Wolf:
 
How does anyone answer the question 'why' when it comes to love?
 
There are the obvious things about him that make him *attractive*:
 
His big, beautiful, dark blue eyes;
His full, lush lips;
Hair that just calls to my fingertips;
His muscled shoulders and thighs;
 
Hell, I even like looking at his feet!
 
And his *voice* -- that expressive voice!
 
If I believed in 'love at first sight,' those things would do it.  But I
don't believe in that.  And it didn't.
 
Those things are not what have made me love him.
 
What has?
 
There is not enough bandwidth in the world for me to cover it.  But I'll
mention a few things.
 
When I met him, I thought he was kind of small.  I thought he'd be easy
to push around.  But I've seen him face a lot of intimidating people and
situations without backing down.  Not that he wasn't afraid  -- he was
terrified.  It's just that he wasn't intimidated.  I admired that from
the beginning.
 
And he's smart, in a way that I don't see too much.  He sort of gathers
facts and ideas from here and there and links them together to come up
with pretty good insights.  He's not that linear in his reasoning but
what he does, works.
 
I love his energy and enthusiasm for life.  I feel so burnt out
sometimes that I forget what that can look like.  When I watch him
enthusing over something, I just feel like smiling.
 
But what I really love about him, what draws me to him, is his
compassion.  It's like he was *born* to give of himself to others.
Hell, he's saved my sanity so many times in the past few years that it
isn't funny.  I can't even let myself imagine where I would be now
without his support.
 
And his loyalty to me has been boundless.  I've *never* had a friend who
has given me so much, who has sacrificed so much for me.
 
So ... Wolf, there it is.
 
Yes, he bugs me sometimes.  Yes, he's immature at times.  But ...
 
My God, I love him.
 
I'm going to close now.  I have to get a grip on myself so I can go to
work and focus on my job.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:03:36 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: So then why ... [was The Rally in January]
 
 On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: [snip]
 
: It's just that he's being a real pain in the ass, lately, so I'm not
: so sure I *want* to go with him at the moment.  He just blows up at
: every little picky thing and ... well, he's just not being very easy
: to be with right now.
:
: His crankiness comes and goes, so in the long run, I know it'll be OK.
: But I can't really guarantee that I'll be able to stand being cooped
: up in a car with him for 3 days straight.
 
If he's this hard to get along with and hard to predict like this,  why
do you love him?  What's the attraction?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:56:32 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: So then why ... [was The Rally in January]
 
: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: [snip]
:
: It's just that he's being a real pain in the ass, lately, so I'm not
: so sure I *want* to go with him at the moment.  He just blows up at
: every little picky thing and ... well, he's just not being very easy
: to be with right now.
:
: His crankiness comes and goes, so in the long run, I know it'll be OK.
:
: But I can't really guarantee that I'll be able to stand being cooped
: up in a car with him for 3 days straight.
 
    On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: If he's this hard to get along with and hard to predict like this, why
: do you love him?  What's the attraction?
 
Well, Panther, sometimes it's hard to say.
 
Yeah, I'm still kind of pissed at him.
 
But I still love him.  I'll get over it.
 
I think I love him for the things few people get to see.  Things that he
Doesn't always even show me.
 
He's one of those guys who have been so hurt, so damaged that they put
up a wall to protect themselves.  A nasty wall, covered by barbed wire
and surrounded by a moat full of alligators.
 
But I could see something interesting, something good through the
windows, so I forced myself to swim the moat and climb that wall.  I was
not disappointed.
 
He's smart, sensitive, down-to-earth.  He's a great bullshit detector --
I can't get away with anything
:)
 
He sees people for who they really are.  He really *sees* me.   How many
people in your life really *see* who you really are?  And after seeing
me, he still likes me.  Takes my breath away!
 
He really *cares* about people and is really protective of me, even when
he doesn't really have to be.  He's kind of funny about this.  One time,
he was driving a little too fast and when we rounded this corner, he
actually *stuck out his arm* across my chest like he was trying to keep
me from flying through the windshield.  This even though I was wearing a
seat belt!  Cracked me up!  I've seen moms do that with their little
kids, but never big buff guys doing that for their roommates!!!
 
And he has a really wry sense of humor.  This is something almost
nobody gets to see, because he has to be so serious in his work.  But he
gets this crooked grin and this little light in his eye - it's just
great to see.  I try to be goofy sometimes just so I can see it.
 
But maybe most important, he's given me a home.  Like I said in my
introductory post on WatchAD, I was always moving around a lot when I
was a kid.  I've lived here longer than I've lived anywhere.  But it's
not just the place.  *He's* my home, now.  I feel like I *belong* with
him.  That means a lot to me.
 
So, he's, like, on the cranky side.  But I still love him.
 
Does that answer your question, Panther?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:25:44 -0800 (PST)
 
mountain% finger [email protected]
 
[washnet.com] connect: Connection refused.
 
mountain% logout
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:36:57 -0800 (PST)
 
cpd% telnet rainet.com
 
Connecting
 
Connected
 
Escape character ^]
 
login: ellison
 
password: *******
 
mountain% telnet washnet.com
 
Connecting
 
Connected
 
Escape character ^]
 
login: bsandburg
 
password: ********
 
password incorrect
 
password:
 
^]
 
mountain% logout
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:40:06 -0800 (PST)
 
ru-annex2% telnet washnet.com
 
Connecting to washnet.com
 
Connect:
 
Escape character is ^]
 
login: bsandburg
 
password: ******
 
rain% finger [email protected]
 
[rainet.com] Connect: Connection refused.
 
rain% logout
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:58:50 -0800 (PST)
 
ru-annex2% telnet washnet.com
 
Connecting to washnet.com
 
Connected
 
Escape character is ^]
 
login: bsandburg
 
password: ******
 
rain% telnet rainet.com
 
Connecting to rainet.com
 
Connected
 
Escape character is ^]
 
login: jelisson
 
password: ***
 
password incorrect
 
password: ****
 
password incorrect
 
password: ***
 
password incorrect
 
login timeout
 
disconnect
 
rain% logout
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:22:09 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: The Rally
 
Dear Wolf,
 
I believe I can easily "squeeze" one or two more Watchman aficionados
into my humble home!  We fans have to "stick" together and sleeping in
close quarters will certainly accomplish that!
 
I'm going to assume that with a handle like "Wolf", you are a canine
lover?  I hope so because I have two spoiled rotten dogs, both *inside*
animals.  They love people, love to curl up with sleeping folks! Any
sleeping folks!  <g>  And they will be in seventh heaven with all us
Watchman Fans filling every available spot in *their* home.  See?
Spoiled rotten.
 
Did I mention the sleeping arrangements?  Well, let me just give you a
clue:  Sleeping bags! And I will take bribes for the two couches, the
big comfy chair with ottoman and the bathtub!
 
Be prepared to have fun and rally behind our favorite show and our
favorite guys!
 
Here's hoping your roomie does decide to go and don't forget:
 
Plain talk, plain truth = a true bond.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Mon, 7 Dec 1998, 9:30 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim?"
 
"Yeah, Chief?"
 
"Have you had a chance to read any of the Watchman fanfic my friend
sent?"
 
"A couple."
 
"What d'ya think?"
 
"They were OK."
 
"Just okay, Jim?"
 
"What do you want, Sandburg, a Pauline Kael special?!  They were OK.
Kind of fun."
 
"Did you like any one better than any other?  Do you want me to have my
friend send more?"
 
"Well, I kind of liked the one where the guys go undercover in the
leather bar and Jake gets slipped a mickey and ends up in Joe's bed and
doesn't have a clue how he got there.  That one was damn funny!  Maybe
more like that one, except maybe from Joe's point of view.  I really
identify more with him, you know, he's older and everything."
 
"So ... it didn't ... *bother* you?"
 
"Didn't *what* bother me?"
 
"You know, ... 2 guys?"
 
"Sandburg, it's the 90s!  I've worked vice.  I've seen a lot more stuff
than that.  Very little surprises or shocks me anymore.  So ..  *no* it
didn't bother me.  Weren't you listening?  I said I *liked* the damn
story.  I even asked for more like it."
 
"Okay, okay!  It's just that you asked me that the other day but you
never .. um .. told me how *you* felt about that sort of thing, so I
just thought I'd ask, y'know?  No big deal.
 
"Um .. so, Jim, .. have you given any more thought to going to the rally
in LA?"
 
"Still thinking it over, Sandburg.  You know, there's no
guarantee that I can get the time away from the station."
 
"I know.  Just checking, Jim. By the way, when I e-mail my friend about
the stories, how .. um .. *explicit* can they be?"
 
"I'm a big boy, Sandburg.  If the writing's decent and it has a decent
story, I don't mind a little sex in the mix."
 
"Between the guys?"
 
"Sandburg, I thought we just finished discussing this.  Between the guys
is just fine.  In fact, it's more than fine.  Maybe I can imagine
that*someone* my age is having a sex life.  That OK with *you,*
Sandburg?"
 
"Uh .. sure .. fine, Jim.  I'll ... "
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:37:36 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To:  allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: Re:
  On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, allison wrote:
 
: Dear Wolf,
:
: I believe I can easily "squeeze" one or two more Watchman aficionados
: into my humble home!  We fans have to "stick" together and sleeping in
: close quarters will certainly accomplish that!
 
Great!  Count us in!
 
Thank you so much.  That'll take care of one of my worries.
 
Wait -- sleeping in close quarters?
 
How many people will be there, really?  And are we going to be the only
guys?  Will the women there be comfortable with all this proximity?
 
I guess if you think it's all OK, then it's probably OK.  I don't have
any problem with this, really.  I just don't want anyone to be, you
know, *nervous* or anything.
 
: I'm going to assume that with a handle like "Wolf", you are a canine
: lover?
 
: [snip]
 
Yes, I seem to have an affinity to both cats and dogs.  I sort of
identify with dogs, but find cats really .. um .. mysterious and wise.
 
I'm looking forward to meeting your dogs.
 
: Did I mention the sleeping arrangements?  Well, let me just give you a
: clue:  Sleeping bags! And I will take bribes for the two couches, the
: big comfy chair with ottoman and the bathtub!
 
I can do sleeping bags.  The floor will be fine.  I once slept in just
my clothes, no sleeping bag, on the ground, in a forest -- so I'm easy.
 
: [snip]
 
: Here's hoping your roomie does decide to go
 
I'll let you know as soon as I do.
 
: and don't forget:  Plain talk, plain truth = a true bond.
 
I'll keep this in mind.
 
Thanks, again, for *everything*!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:10:46 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: The Rally
 
Dear Wolf,
 
I don't believe anyone will be any more nervous about you guys than all
of us are at the fact that most of us are meeting for the first time, in
person, face to face!
 
We all have expectations, imaginary visuals, of the many people we*talk*
with on the net and on our lists but a fan is a fan, right?  And
underneath the gender, the age, the difference in generations, we are
just human beings with a common goal, a common love and a shared regard
for a good relationship, wherever we find it and with whom ever we find
it!
 
I count you lucky if your roomie does come with you, you'll have that
little something extra, a known comrade to share the adventure!
 
See you in a month!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 08:52:25 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Follow-up question
 
   On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: No real news, Marmot et al.
:
: I don't want to go into great detail, but I'm a little pissed at him
: at the moment so I haven't really felt like talking.
:
: I still don't feel ready to open up, anyway, yet.  It's way too scary.
 
[snip]
:
: But I can't talk to him right now.  It seems like every time I open my
: mouth, he snaps at me.
 
[snip]
 
: --Wolf
:
: Do I have to do a snippet now?  I really don't want to; I'm kind of
: depressed.
 
Wolf,
 
Sorry to hear you're hurting so bad.
 
I can tell from all your posts and e-mails that you're a decent guy.
You really don't deserve to have somebody snapping at you all the time.
 
I feel like I should do something to help but I don't know what.
 
Let me know if there's something I can do.  Talk maybe.
 
I'm not usually a good talker but you can talk to me and I can just
listen or something.
 
Well, that's all I wanted to say.
 
I'm gonna pack it in.  Got an early day tomorrow.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:14:45 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: your mail
 
Hey, Wolf,
 
Feeling any better today?
 
Just checking.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:45:38 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Your Mail
 
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
:  Hey, Wolf,
:
:  Feeling any better today?
:
:  Just checking.
 
Panther,
 
Good to hear from you.
 
Yeah, I'm OK.  Roomie's lightened up a bit today.  He even smiled once
or twice.
 
Thanks for asking.
 
Have you found a ride to the Rally, yet?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:23:39 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Rally Arrangements
 
  On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Have you found a ride to the Rally, yet?
 
Nah.
 
Like I said in my earlier e-mail, my work schedule is just too
unpredictable.  I can't even be sure if I'm going.  So carpooling just
won't work.
 
So if I do get to go, I'll have to either drive down or fly down myself,
on my own.
 
I have lined up a place to stay at a listsib's place, just in case.
She's being very generous in letting about a dozen people stay there.  I
was impressed by her hospitality.
 
I know this is a kind of dumb question. But what does a guy wear to a
rally of this type?  Do we carry signs?  Do we chant?  Wear buttons?
 
I'm going to guess that anything too 'slashy' is against the rules,
right?
 
Gotta go.  Getting hungry for dinner.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:16:10 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: A Question about The Rally
 
I've been corresponding off-list with a fellow fan and these questions
have arisen:
 
How are you Rally-goers going to dress?
 
Do we carry signs, chant?
 
How slashy can the T-shirts or slogans be?
 
I'll probably just wear what I always do -- sort of the grunge look --
mainly because that's what I've *got*.
 
Also, how cold does it get in LA in January?  How many layers should I
wear?
 
Thanks,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:51:14 -0800 (PST)
From: allison french <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Question about The Rally
 
Dear Wolf,
 
I think "California Casual" is the norm for this type of event and in
case you didn't know, your *grunge* look is *in* with the SoCal look
so you'll be a perfect fit!
 
As to the weather?  Well, I've visited your fair state and have a real
aversion to cold.  I felt your area is definitely a three...sometimes
four, layer place in the winter. LA is at most, a two layer city.
Heck, sometimes even our rain is warm!
 
Um, slashy?  Probably be a good idea to put that on the back burner for
the rally....but T-shirts with the show's name and/or cast?  Great idea
and easy to identify all of us! Banners might look a little *too*
planned?  What do you think?  I mean, we are supposed to be gathering
"spontaneously"!  Like anyone would believe 150-200 people from all over
the country (and I hear, the world) would just "spontaneously" appear!
<g>  But then The Watchman is a miracle show!  With miracle fans!
 
Well, hope I've helped answer some questions? Let me know if I can be of
any other help. And do you know yet if your roomie is coming?
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:14:10 -0600
From: Sallye <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Question about The Rally
 
Wolf,
 
Good question about what to wear!  I now have about 5 WM T-shirts and
wonder if it's OK to wear them.  If not, I guess my old standby tie-dyes
will work.  I'm thinking it'll be warm, compared to the rest of the
country.  Maybe someone will let us know!  Thank you, Wolf, for asking
the questions!  Look out - the Texas Tribe is coming!
 
Sallye
 
 
oooOOooo
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:36:22 -0800 (PST)
To: allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Question about The Rally
 
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, allison wrote:
 
: Dear Wolf,
:
: I think "California Casual" is the norm for this type of event and in
: case you didn't know, California Casual means "anything goes".  Your
*grunge* look is *in* with the SoCal look so you'll be a perfect fit!
 
>>This is a relief for me.  I'm sure the 'anything goes' atmosphere
will be a relief for a lot of us.
 
: As to the weather?  Well, I've visited your fair state and have a real
: aversion to cold.  I felt your area is definitely a three...sometimes
: four, layer place in the winter. LA is at most, a two layer city.
:  Heck, sometimes even our rain is warm!
 
>>Aah, I may actually get a chance to thaw out for a day or two!
 
: Um, slashy?  Probably be a good idea to put that on the back burner
: for the rally....but T-shirts with the shows name and/or cast?  Great
: idea and easy to identify all of us!
 
>>This is definitely do-able.  I have just the T-shirt.
 
 
: Banners might look a little *too* planned?  What do you think?  I
: mean,  we are supposed to be gathering "spontaneously"!  Like anyone
: would believe 150-200 people from all over the country (and I hear,
: the world) would just "spontaneously" appear!  <g>  But then
: The Watchman is a miracle show!  With miracle fans!
 
>>Well, you know, the grapevine ... ;)
 
: And do you know yet if your roomie is coming?
 
>>Sorry, don't know yet.  His work schedule is really erratic so it's
hard to make plans.
 
Thanks again, Allison.
 
See you in about 4 weeks!  Wow! that's so close!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:39:22 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Rally Arrangements
 
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I have lined up a place to stay at a listsib's place, just in case.
: She's being very generous in letting about a dozen people stay
: there.    I was impressed by her hospitality.
 
This is good news!
 
I've made arrangements with a fellow fan, also.  She sounds like a
very nice lady.
 
She says it's going to be rather 'close quarters' wall-to-wall sleeping
bags.  Reminds me of my undergraduate days after wild parties.  ;)
 
Hey, maybe we can meet at one of the places we're staying at while we're
down there?
 
What do you think?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:30:29 -0800 (PST)
 
cpd% telnet rainet.com
 
Connecting
 
Connected
Escape character ^]
 
login: ellison
password: *******
 
mountain% telnet washnet.com
 
Connecting
 
Connected
Escape character ^]
 
login: bsandburg
password: ***
 
password incorrect
 
password: ****
 
password incorrect
 
password: ***
 
password incorrect
 
login timeout
 
disconnect
 
mountain% logout
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:24:05 -0800 (PST)
To: allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Question about The Rally
 
Allison,
 
I was wondering if I could ask a favor of you.
 
I've been corresponding off-list with Wolf -- one of the about 5 other
guys on the list -- and it turns out he's going to the rally in LA.
 
Do you remember him from the list?
 
I'd like to meet him and his roommate and wondered whether they could
come to part of the slumber party?
 
I'll certainly respect your wishes on this.  You've been incredibly
hospitable and I don't want to abuse that.
 
Thanks,
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:54:58 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A New, Informal Bulletin Board for the Rally
 
Hi guys!
 
I'm feeling SO enthusiastic about our success in getting a few new
episodes that I wanted to help out our efforts in trying to get a fifth
season, by supplying a temporary bulletin board for fellow Watchman
fans.
 
I've put it on my personal, amateur website and set it up using the
coding for a guestbook.
 
If you want to leave a message, you just click on the link and fill in
the blanks and press the I'm Done link.
 
If you just want to read messages, there is a link for that, also.
 
I've posted the URL below.  Please let's keep this information among us
on the list -- OK?
 
Give it a try!
 
Hope to see you at the Rally in January!!!
 
Linkname: Marmot's Watchman Information Page
 
URL:
 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/8970/watchman.html
 
--Marmot
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:14:41 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Rally Arrangements
 
: On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: I have lined up a place to stay at a listsib's place, just in case.
[snip]
 
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: I've made arrangements with a fellow fan, also.
 
[snip]
 
: Hey, maybe we can meet at one of the places we're staying at while
: we're down there?
 
: What do you think?
 
This is a thought.  We should check with our hosts to see whether that
would be appropriate.
 
I should warn you that my host says she's having a *slumber party*
 
I'm guessing that the majority of guests are women, just like on the
list.  Anyway, she assures me that I have nothing to worry about, even
though I've never been to one of those things.
 
You ever been to a slumber party?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Question about The Rally
 
Hi!
 
There's this guy, a fellow fan, that I've been e-mailing about stuff and
I've found out that he might be coming to the rally in LA.  He's not
really sure if he can come because of his work schedule, though.
 
Anyway, if he does come down, I was wondering whether it would be OK to
have him meet me [and my roommate, if he comes] at your place for a
little while.
 
He's been pretty sympathetic with me on some personal stuff and he seems
like a pretty nice guy, so I thought it would be cool to meet.
 
What do you think?  Would this be OK?  I don't want to put you out or
anything.
 
Just let me know.
 
Thanks,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:24:52 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: Rally Arrangements
 
: On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: Hey, maybe we can meet at one of the places we're staying at while
:
: we're down there?
:
: What do you think?
 
 On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: This is a thought.  We should check with our hosts to see whether that
: would be appropriate.
 
: I should warn you that my host says she's having a *slumber party*
 
[snip]
 
: You ever been to a slumber party?
 
No, never been to one of these.
 
I've heard, though, that few people actually *slumber* at these things.
 
It'll be really cool finding out how this particular bonding ritual is
structured!
 
One of my fellow students did a paper on something about this.
Something to do with hairbrushing.  Like, maybe, lots of mutual grooming
behavior like brushing each other's hair takes place.
 
Fine with me.  I *like* having my hair brushed!  Feels great!
 
Anyway, let me know what your host says.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:52:57 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More Arrangements
 
Dear Wolf:
 
I think it would be fine for you guys to meet at my place!  No problem.
Getting a chance to really "talk" sure won't be easy at the rally or
while we are all getting together, but I have a lovely patio, very
private, lovely green belt view and you may actually have a chance to
talk with your friend.  You may also have a great opportunity to view
our "wolf". Okay, it's really just a bobcat, but I *swear* it looks just
like a wolf!  And darn, that cat isn't afraid of anything!
 
See ya soon!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:04:34 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More Arrangements
 
Dear Panther:
 
I do know Wolf from the list, he has shown some great insight and had
great questions!  And here's the good news:  Wolf is already signed up
to be one of my guests!
 
This whole rally is really shaping up to be an "unforgettable"
experience!  And one that will leave us all with memories to last a
lifetime.  I really believe this will bring us all closer together,
including those of us who are unable to attend. They will be counting on
us to do them proud and bring back loads of information, not to mention
a blow by blow description of the whole event!
 
I am actually more excited about this than Christmas!  So many of us
know each other only through our discussions on the list and now the
opportunity to meet face to face?  Like you and Wolf.  You two kinda
represent all of us!
 
allison, who is already starting to clean the house. Spit and polish
time!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:13:32 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: Anyway, I recently realized that just like the guy on the show [see I
: *can get this on topic <g>] -- I have fallen in love with my roommate.
 
: [snip]
 
: I don't want him to feel nervous or bad that he doesn't return the
: feelings.
 
: [snip]
 
Hey, Wolf,
 
Has he given any indication that he *wouldn't* be interested?  Or that
hearing about your feelings would make him nervous?
 
How can you tell?  I mean how does *one* tell these things?
 
Do we just assume that a guy's straight until he makes an announcement?
 
Has he given any clues?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:32:10 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Clues [was Love in Unexpected Places]
 
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: Has he given any indication that he *wouldn't* be interested?  Or that
: hearing about your feelings would make him nervous?
:
: How can you tell?  I mean how does *one* tell these things?
:
: Do we just assume that a guy's straight until he makes an
: announcement?
:
: Has he given any clues?
 
 
Clues?
 
This is what's somewhat confusing.
 
Like a lot of guys, he doesn't talk a lot.  Sometimes he'll blurt out
something about his emotions but usually it happens after he's bottled
it up and mulled it over for like weeks. He's never 'blurted out'
anything that sounded like 'interest.'
 
I've never seen him 'check out' guys.  He has dated some women but those
relationships usually fizzle or go bad.  He's been married and divorced.
 
But he breaks a lot of proximity rules for guys.  He stands close and
touches me a lot [like on my arm or back or head]. In a way he's sort of
affectionate.
 
He worries about me a lot, so I know he cares about me.
 
He's more open-minded than I realized about slash.  So he probably
wouldn't *totally* freak if I mentioned that sort of interest outside of
my recreational reading.
 
But he can be pretty harsh at times.
 
So the messages are definitely mixed.  Makes me nervous.
 
How about you?  Any clues from your guy?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:22:02 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Clues [was Love in Unexpected Places]
 
: On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: Has he given any indication that he *wouldn't* be interested?  Or that
: hearing about
: your feelings would make him nervous?
:
[snip]
 
: Has he given any clues?
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Clues?
 
[snip]
 
: So the messages are definitely mixed.  Makes me nervous.
:
: How about you?  Any clues from your guy?
 
The particulars are a little different but it comes down to the same
thing -- confusion and nervousness.
 
By the way, have *you* worked out transportation down to the Rally, yet?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Arrangements
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: By the way, have *you* worked out transportation down to the Rally,
: yet?
 
No.
 
But you know, I've been thinking this over and I'm starting to feel
guilty about considering going down alone.
 
Really the only reason I would be going down without my roomie would be
if he had to work.  And he needs me to help him with his work a lot of
the time.  And I'd feel as though I were abandoning him, just to go
party.
 
That just doesn't feel right.
 
So I don't even know if I'm going -- it all depends on his work
schedule.
 
So if we get to go, we'll be driving down together.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:22:22 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Love in Unexpected Places
 
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Anyway, I recently realized that just like the guy on the show [see I
: *can* get this on topic <g>] -- I have fallen in love with my
: roommate.  [snip] I don't want him to feel nervous or bad that he
: doesn't return the feelings.
 
I was reading back in my e-mail log and noticed that one of the things
you said about this guy is that he really *sees* you, really knows you;
that he's a good bullshit detector.
 
How do you know that he hasn't already gotten an inkling how you feel
about him?
 
Maybe he suspects but is waiting for you to either realize it yourself
or reveal it to him first.
 
If he's not much on talking about his own feelings, maybe he's hoping
for an opening from you.
 
Does this seem reasonable?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:47:53 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: panic!
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: Maybe he suspects but is waiting for you to either realize it yourself
: or reveal it to him first.
:
: If he's not much on talking about his own feelings, maybe he's hoping
: for an opening from you.
:
: Does this seem reasonable?
 
Oh my god!
 
Fuck yeah! this is reasonable!  How did I *not see* this was possible?!
 
Now I'm all paranoid!
 
Panther, what am I going to do?!
 
Help!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:33:43 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Less Panic
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: If he's not much on talking about his own feelings, maybe he's hoping
: for an opening from you.
 
Sorry about the last e-mail, man.  I had to take a little break and
breathe into a paper bag.
 
I'm a little less shaky now.
 
I was thinking of telling him at the rally, since we would be on sort of
a vacation and having fun...  I would like to associate something like
this with fun, you know?
 
But maybe I should tell him sooner than I was planning to.
 
Should I?
 
And how?
 
Maybe you can help me out, here.  If *your* roommate were to tell *you*
... well, when would *you* want to know?
 
What words would *you* want him to say?
 
This is funny.  Most of the time, I have no problem talking but
...*this* just stops all blood flow to the linguistic centers of my
brain.
 
Oh man!  This is so more complicated than I want my life to be!
 
Sorry, gotta go find the paper bag again.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:23:09 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: No Need to Panic
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I was thinking of telling him at the rally, since we would be on sort
: of a vacation and having fun...  I would like to associate something
: like this with fun, you know?
:
: But maybe I should tell him sooner than I was planning to.
:
: Should I?
 
I can't make that decision for you.  You are *there*  You can see his
moods.  You know him -- right?
 
And you will know when *you* are ready.
 
Do what makes sense.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:36:30 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A Plan?
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
[snip]
:
: Maybe you can help me out, here.  If *your* roommate were to tell
: *you* ... well, when would *you* want to know?
:
: What words would *you* want him to say?
:
: This is funny.  Most of the time, I have no problem talking but ...
: *this* just stops all blood flow to the linguistic centers of my
: brain.
:
: Oh man!  This is so more complicated than I want my life to be!
:
: Sorry, gotta go find the paper bag again.
 
Hey, Wolf,
 
I had this idea.
 
Maybe you would panic less if you sort of practiced ahead of time.
 
Maybe a rehearsal.
 
Maybe we could both get over our nervousness this way.  Sort of help
each other out.
 
Sound like a plan?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Advice?
 
I have a question that may be considered on or off topic, depending on
how you look at it.
 
As I mentioned here a few weeks ago, I'm in a situation very similar to
the one our guys Joe and Jake of The Watchman are in.  Well, that is, if
you take the slash perspective on the show, which I do.
 
Several of you have presented personal stories and urged me to 'go for
it,' tell the guy.
 
My problem is I really don't have any experience with this sort of thing
and I'm reaching panic-attack levels of anxiety here.
 
I *so* don't know how to go about this.
 
Any suggestions?
 
How would you have Jake tell Joe? [See, I *knew* I could keep this on-
topic...]
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:27:06 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A Plan?
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: I had this idea.
:
: Maybe you would panic less if you sort of practiced ahead of time.
:
: Maybe a rehearsal.
:
: Maybe we could both get over our nervousness this way.  Sort of help
: each other out.
:
: Sound like a plan?
 
Um, Panther,
 
?
 
What?!
 
Rehearse with each other?!
 
Are you serious?
 
How would that work?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:56:40 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Don't Panic
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Um, Panther,
:
: ?
:
: What?!
:
: Rehearse with each other?!
:
: Are you serious?
:
: How would that work?
 
Wolf,
 
You're starting to panic again.  Just calm down.
 
We could just sort of suggest approaches and phrases to each other.
 
You could coach me and I can coach you.
 
A fair trade.
 
Sound OK?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A Plan 2
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: We could just sort of suggest approaches and phrases to each other.
:
: You could coach me and I can coach you.
:
: A fair trade.
 
So .. OK ...
 
This might work.
 
But maybe we should do this in a chat room so it'll go more quickly, so
we don't have to wait so long between e-mails.
 
I'll set it up so that it's by invitation only so we can keep the
discussion private.
 
A plan?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:16:12 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Advice?
 
Wolf,
 
I really believe in the *show* and tell method.  In other words, I'd
have Jake "show" Joe in several different ways, over a short period of
time.  Then *tell* him one evening, quiet, fire in the fireplace, his
favorite music....
 
How could Jake show Joe?
 
-Doing something for Joe that Jake doesn't normally do, but that Joe
does.
 
-Cooking a favorite meal - Breakfast, lunch or dinner....or even all
three!
 
-Doing small things for Joe, things he really hates doing himself.
 
Of course, there is much to be said for the, um, blunt approach?  Joe
walks in the door and Jake hauls off and kisses him!  Works for me!
Heck, would work *on* me!  Hey Wolf, you don't happen to have a brother
do you?
 
Any of these ideas appeal to you?  Think they'd work for you?
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:33:58 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Chat
 
: On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: We could just sort of suggest approaches and phrases to each other.
:
: You could coach me and I can coach you.
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: But maybe we should do this in a chat room so it'll go more quickly,
: so we don't have to wait so long between e-mails.
:
: I'll set it up so that it's by invitation only so we can keep the
: discussion private.
 
I've never done a 'chat' before, but I think it might be worth a try.
This waiting in between for replies is really irritating when you want
immediate feedback.
 
OK I'll try it.
 
Let's  go to #watch.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
**Log file opened at: 12/12/98 00:15:06 AM
**Channel created at Saturday, December 12, 1998 00:13:04 AM
**Mode change "+i" on wolf by wolf
**panther ([email protected]) has joined the channel #watch
 
wolf: you there?
 
<panther>: yes
 
wolf: so how do you wanta do this?  Who goes first?
 
<panther>: well you're the one that was breathing into a paper bag.
 
wolf: so i'm the one that is nervous about rehearsing too
 
<panther>: i can't hang out here all day, sport, so let's get this over
with OK
 
wolf: OK the question was if your guy confessed to you what would you
want him to say to you.  What should I say?
 
<panther>: i'd just want him to come straight out with it.
 
wolf: like that helps.  i'm not even sure what IT is. or if there is
more than one IT.
 
<panther>: what are you talking about more than one IT?
 
wolf: well there is more here than just that I love him right
 
<panther>: more than that?
 
wolf: well you know
 
<panther>: what?
 
<panther>: where did you go?  are you still there?
 
wolf: still here.
 
<panther>: well?
 
wolf: well, I've never
 
<panther>: never what?  told somebody you loved them?
 
wolf: no never a guy and i've never wanted to
 
<panther>: hello?  where'd you go? you know the way you're clamming up
we might as well do e-mail.
 
wolf: just be patient.  this is harder than i thought it would be.
 
<panther>: well you don't have to confess anything to me.  you could
just explain what you want to say to him.
 
wolf: well i've never felt
 
<panther>: I don't get this.  why are you sending before you finish your
sentences?  it's hard to figure out what's on your mind that way.
 
wolf: I was hitting send out of frustration cuz i didn't know what i
wanted to say next. sorry.
 
<panther>: are you trying to not talk about sommething embarrassing?
 
wolf: OK it's the sex thing.
 
<panther>: so would you WANT to talk to him about sex? on the first
conversation?
 
wolf: i guess i don't have to.  But wouldn't it be sort of implied?
 
<panther>: depends. how would you get started?
 
<panther>: you could just say you love him and that's it.  you could
wait on the embarrassing stuff
 
wolf: get real.  so i say like 'i love you' and he says ' i love you
too' and then i say no you don't get it
 
<panther>: why would it go that way?  oh i see you could say "i'm IN
love with you." and then that clears up some of the confusion maybe.
 
wolf: but you know you sort of changed the subject. The question was
what would YOU want to hear.  You're supposed to be coaching me.
 
<panther>: what would i want to hear?
 
wolf: yeah.  how would you want to hear it?  You know we could do sort
of like role playing.  i could be him and you could be *you*.
 
<panther>: well at least i have the easier job
 
wolf: LOL you know this woman i knew said that she and her girlfriend
used to practice kissing each other pretending they were potential
boyfriends. she
 
wolf: said that she knew a lot of girls that did that and the funny
thing was that some of the girls liked playing around with their
 
wolf: girlfriends so much that they stopped pretending and just went for
it with each other.
 
<panther>: Is there a point to that story?
 
wolf: just remembered a funny story.
 
<panther>: you're not hinting anything are you?
 
wolf: hinting?
 
<panther>: like we're acting like pubescent girls?
 
wolf: no no i just thought it was funny guess i'm just embarrassed. OK
you're you and i'm your roommate.  what do i say.
 
<panther>: you just say it.
 
wolf: you are like so not cooperative here.  just say it.  OK OK
 
wolf: 'i've got something important to tell you.'
 
<panther>: 'something important?'
 
wolf: 'i've never felt this way about another guy.'
 
<panther>: where did you go?
 
wolf: I'm back.  I was locking the door to my office.  Safety
precaution this late at night.
 
wolf: OK 'ive never felt this about another guy'
 
<panther>: 'like what?'
 
wolf: 'i think i'm in love with you.'
 
<panther>: You THINK?  You better be sure.  If I heard that, I wouldn't
feel really sure of things.
 
wolf: like you wouldn't go for saying 'me too'?
 
<panther>: not if he says 'I think'  I'd want him to be more definite
than that.  Aren't you sure how you feel about your friend?
 
wolf: well, yeah, I think so.
 
wolf: how the hell do I know!  I've never done this before.  I just know
I love him.
 
<panther>: well just say that and get it over with.
 
wolf: OK 'this is the thing.  i love you.'
 
<panther> straightforward and to the point.
 
wolf: hey, panther, it's getting late.  let's log off and try this
tomorrow night.
 
<panther>: OK I guess.  But let's get down to it next time.  Quit
dancing around.  OK?
 
wolf: OK
 
**signoff: <panther>
**log file closed at Saturday, 12/12/98 01:15:07 AM
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:53:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Karen <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Advice?
 
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: > As I mentioned here a few weeks ago, I'm in a situation very similar
: > to the one our guys Joe and Jake of The Watchman are in.  Well, that
: > is, if you take the slash perspective on the show, which I do.
: >  I *so* don't know how to go about this.
: >
: > Any suggestions?
: >
: > How would you have Jake tell Joe? [See, I *knew* I could keep this
: > on-topic...]
 
Wolf, I can totally understand your anxiety. I was in the same
situation once, and it was my complete desperate fear that kept me from
saying anything, until it was too late to say anything at all. I think
that I would have rather gone for it than feel like I wasted the chance.
So, I thought about how I would have done it, if I'd taken the chance,
just changing the details a bit to take into account the fact that
you're guys, not women.
 
You've said that your roommate is very cool about slash. Maybe, if he's
that open, you could ask him if he's ever thought about being with a
man. Set the scene. A late night, both of you are relaxed, maybe having
beer while watching a game, or just after one. Bring up the subject of
the show and the rally, and then bring up slash. Maybe if you talk
around the subject enough, you'll feel confident enough to just ask him.
Feel him out, get an idea of how he feels.
 
Be subtle. I know that's hard, subtlety is not my strong point <big
understatement here>, but let him know that you're interested. If you
let him know that you're interested, but in a subtle way that lets him
pretend that it was never said if he's not interested, then you can both
save face.
 
And let him know that he's important to you. Not just in this
conversation, but maybe in the days while you're building up the nerve
to have the conversation. Do things for him that are special.  Tell him
how much you appreciate his friendship, and the things that he does for
you.
 
Let him know that this isn't just about sex for you, but about feelings.
 
Anyways, if I were to write a story where Jake told Joe how he felt,
that's how I'd do it. Of course, right now I'm working on a story that's
from the opposite angle; that is, Joe realizes how he feels about Jake,
deals with it, and then finally tells him. (See, I knew I could make
this whole ramble on topic! Easy!)     And yes, that means that I'm
working on Cicada's Cry again. "The story that will not die" I call it.
Humph. It gives me a headache. But I just can't give it up.
 
Hope this helps,
 
Karen
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
** Log file opened at: 12/12/98 9:05:06 PM
**Channel created at Saturday, December 12, 1998 9:04:04 PM
**Mode change "+i" on wolf by wolf
**panther ([email protected]) has joined the channel #watch
 
wolf: you back?
 
<panther>: yes
 
wolf: OK your turn to talk.
 
<panther>: well, maybe i wouldn't just talk.  maybe i would sort of do
it by touch.
 
wolf: LOL oh, you're more of a man of action?
 
<panther>: maybe touch his hair. i love his hair.
 
wolf: oh i know, you should brush his hair.  most people love having
their hair groomed.  if they have hair ;)
 
<panther>: hey, none of that.  so hairbrushing. like at slumber parties.
:)
 
wolf: yeah.  oh yeah, you're going to a slumber party. perfect!
 
<panther>: i KNOW i don't want to do this in public.  Are you crazy?!
 
wolf: when in rome..
 
<panther>: i may indulge in hairbrushing if the rest of rome does
hairbrushing but i am NOT going to spill my guts at a
 
<panther>: slumber party surrounded by about a dozen other strangers. i
don't care how much they are into slash.  i'm NOT going to be their next
 
<panther> slash hobby.  this is personal. it's private.
 
wolf: whoa.  calm down.  sorry i mentioned it.  OK hairbrushing is good.
so you need a private place.
 
<panther>: well the host offered to let us use one of the bedrooms since
so many of the guests are women.  that might work.
 
wolf: you are going to be announcing *this* the same night you will be
SHARING a BED at a *stranger's* house?
 
wolf: in a room where there are a dozen people sleeping outside?! are
you crazy?  How will you ever get to sleep?!
 
<panther>: well with all those people around you can bet i won't be
indulging in anything else but talking.
 
wolf: but won't you get ... i don't know... turned on?
 
wolf: I know that if I took my roommate into a bedroom and started
saying 'i love you' and then got in the bed!  I could not do it.
 
wolf: *either* IT.
 
<panther>: well that rules out the guest bedroom for the confessional.
 
wolf: well I guess you'll have to figure location later. so you're
brushing his hair. then what?
 
<panther>: well, what would you do if your roommate started brushing
your hair?
 
wolf: oh man!  melt.  I'd be thinking 'take me now!'
 
<panther>: but what would you SAY?
 
wolf: OK i'm your roommate and you're you and you brush my hair and i go
'mmmmmmm' or 'that feels good' or something.
 
<panther>: and then i can't talk and i just brush his hair.  You know I
really can't do this.  I know it was my idea but i just can't see
 
<panther>: myself planning a 'spontaneous' conversation.  And I feel
weird pretending you're him.  I mean you 'talk' sort of like him and
 
<panther> you're about the same age but
 
wolf: i'm not him.
 
<panther>: yeah.  sorry.
 
wolf: no problem.  we tried.  we got to be sounding boards. at least a
little bit. no harm, no foul.
 
<panther> so that's it, then?
 
wolf: yeah, I guess.  we can still do chat sometime.  about other stuff
if you want.
 
wolf: I like being able to talk to someone that understands
 
<panther>: yeah. me too. I guess that would be OK.
 
wolf: I should log off.  I have an early day tomorrow.
 
<panther>: OK. let's log off.
 
** Signoff <panther>
** Log file closed at 12/12/98 9:34:09 PM
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:13:22 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Advice?
 
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Allison wrote:
:
: Of course, there is much to be said for the, um, blunt approach?  Joe
: walks in the door
: and Jake hauls off and kisses him!  Works for me!  Heck, would work
: *on* me!  Hey Wolf, you don't happen to have a brother do you?
:
: Any of these ideas appeal to you?  Think they'd work for you?
 
[Sorry, no brother.]
 
This last one seems like a possibility.  Eliminates the worry about
saying the right words.  At least for a while.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:25:43 -0800
From: Kelly  <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Watchman: Problems with just kissing him.[was Advice?]
 
>On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Allison wrote:
> :
> : Of course, there is much to be said for the, um, blunt approach?
Joe
> : walks in the door and Jake hauls off and kisses him!  Works for me!
> : Heck, would work *on* me!  Hey Wolf, you don't happen to have a
> : brother do you?
> :
> : Any of these ideas appeal to you?  Think they'd work for you?
> >[Sorry, no brother.]
> >This last one seems like a possibility.  Eliminates the worry about
> >saying the right words.  At least for a while.
> >
> >--Wolf
 
Hey Wolf,
 
I'm all for the hauling off and kissing your roommate, I think we kiss
people way too infrequently.
 
Now, one problem with this theory is if there's any kind of height
difference between the two of you.  If you're significantly taller or
shorter than your roommate, then it's almost impossible to just kiss
them out of the blue.
 
Take it from someone who knows.  I'm short and the guy I like is tall.
It was his birthday yesterday and I planned on kissing him as part of a
birthday greeting.  Well when I got up close to plant one on him, I
realized there was no way in hell I was going to be able to kiss him
without some sort of co-operation on his part.  My lips just didn't
reach that high. :)
 
So I guess my warning is if your roommate is taller than you, you might
not be able to kiss him out of the blue.
 
Just something to think about.
 
Kelly
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:47:08 +0100
From: "Anja" <[email protected]>
To:  [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Advice?
 
Hi Panther,
Hi Wolf,
Yesterday my dancing partner Claudia told me of her telling her roommate
that she is (well was, its some time ago) in love with her.
So from what I read much the same situation you are in.
 
1. Here is the advice she got from her brother: "just give her some
flowers as a present". That sounds like a good advice and all guys I
know love flowers too.
 
2. Even though there had been a lot of touching and intimacy between
Claudia and her roommate and  the roommate telling her 'I'm bi of
course', she was quite shocked by the declaration of love and they
didn't get together.
 
But don't let this stop your efforts. And of course she didn't give her
flowers. ...
 
Wish you luck
 
Anja
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
**Log file opened at: 12/14/98 5:05:06 PM
**Channel created at Monday, December 14, 1998 5:04:04 PM
**Mode change "+i" on wolf by wolf
**panther ([email protected]) has joined the channel #watch
 
wolf: hi.  thanks for agreeing to meet here.
 
<panther>: sure.  what's up?  no rehearsals or anything i hope.
 
wolf: no. no rehearsals.  have you told him yet?
 
<panther>: no, you?
 
wolf: no.  thinking of doing it the day after the rally after all the
excitement kind of levels off.  How about you?
 
<panther>: was thinking something like that myself.  so is that what you
wanted to do chat about?
 
wolf: no.
 
<panther>: you still there?
 
wolf: yes.
 
<panther>: well?  I can't just hang around waiting.  I'm at work.  It's
slow here but I'm supposed to be working.  So 'chat.'
 
wolf: OK.  Do you know anything about m/m sex?
 
<panther>: you mean personally? no. not from personal experience.  I
know stuff from hearing it around work.  Terms. Some descriptions.
 
<panther>: I'm in law enforcement so I hear about the not so pleasant
aspects more than I want to. Why?
 
wolf: well i'm starting to panic about telling him because then i might
have to deal with this sex thing and i start thinking about it
 
wolf: and my mind just freezes up so i don't know what to do
 
<panther>: you're just starting to think about the sex aspect NOW?
 
wolf: yeah.  I mean I really do love him a LOT.  I just hadn't really
thought past that.  or if i did start to think past that i just sort of
 
wolf: didn't go there.  i must have used up several paper bags just to
breathe after starting down that path so I'm just !!
 
<panther>: Where did you THINK this was going to go? Did you think you
would declare your overwhelming love for him and then he would say 'me
too'
 
<panther>: and then what?  you were just going to just go on as you
always had?  or just hold hands or something?
 
<wolf>: no need to get nasty, man, i'm basically a virgin here and i'm
scared and i don't know much and i'm seriously considering giving up on
 
wolf: the whole deal because i just don't know what the hell i'm doing
and i was hoping you did or could give me advice but if you want to
 
<panther>: sorry sorry
 
wolf: give me a hard time
 
wolf: OK
 
<panther>: let me ask you a question.  when you imagine yourself
announcing this little secret to this guy, if he said 'me too,'
 
<panther>: how long did you think the romance or the relationship would
last?  Are you thinking long haul, here?
 
wolf: that's part of the problem.  when i think about my previous
relationships.  they were all with women.  well they all left me.
 
wolf: either they had to leave because of circumstances or they thought
i was too flaky and got mad at me and finally left.
 
wolf: but when i think about this guy, i don't really see any reason why
I couldn't be friends with him forever.  the thought is pretty scary
 
wolf: and i'm not sure anyone would want to stick around with me that
long.  i've never really had that.
 
<panther>: So if you are that sure you want the two of you to have
something for the long term, then this sex thing is very likely to come
up
 
wolf: as it were.
 
<panther>: so your question is what?  how to do it?
 
wolf: well sort of.  it's just that it sounds so gross.
 
<panther>: all of it?
 
wolf: no just some of it.  how explicit do you want me to get?  I mean
you're at work, right?
 
<panther>: well, I don't want to get too crude but I can get *specific*
as long as no one walks by my desk.  it's pretty quiet here
 
<panther>: and most people know not to disturb me unless it's crucial
and mostly i'm supposedly doing paper work so i guess it's OK.
 
wolf: be back in a minute.
 
wolf: i'm back.  i locked the door to my office and put up a do not
disturb sign.  so i guess i'm OK too.
 
<panther>: I was just wondering.  Can you remember what you thought when
you first heard about het sex?
 
wolf: well sort of.  my mom started leaking the information in bits and
pieces from when i was too young to even know what she was talking about
 
wolf: then when i was about 11 i didn't want her to talk to me about
that stuff.  LOL I was the one who was too embarrassed.  And I didn't
 
wolf: have a dad.  so she had her boyfriend tell me the basics and later
when I was older, she gave me her copy of The Joy of Sex.
 
<panther>: OK so when the boyfriend told you the basics, what did you
think about the whole thing?
 
wolf: I thought the whole thing sounded pretty weird.  He wasn't really
clear and I thought I was supposed to pee in the girl.
 
wolf: so the whole thing sounded really gross.
 
<panther>: so did you get over it? :)
 
wolf: well, yeah.  no need to laugh at me.  this still seems *different*
 
<panther>: so have you ever gone down on a woman?
 
<panther>: hello? you still there?
 
wolf: well, yeah.
 
<panther>: and when somebody told you about that the first time?
 
wolf: yeah, the smells and the fluids and that's where the menstrual
blood comes out -- all those thoughts.  I thought I would just gag.
 
<panther>: but did that happen?
 
wolf: well no, actually it was kind of fun. they really LIKE that!  I
get your point, man, but I *still* feel strange about all this and
 
wolf: i still feel pretty clueless
 
<panther>: well why don't you get a copy of the Joy of Gay Sex?
 
wolf: already did.  first thing.  i mean, at first i just had names for
the acts in my head.  just the words.  no pictures.
 
wolf: it was all pretty abstract. and then I looked at their drawings
and the drawings are artfully done and all but I looked at some pretty
 
wolf: basic stuff and saw this picture of a guy sticking 2 fingers in a
guy's butt and it just felt so *in my face* and i just froze
 
<panther>: you're really not getting this.  You've probably done the
moral equivalent of a lot of the stuff in that book.  You've probably
 
<panther>: stuck fingers and other body parts into wet orifices.  You've
put your mouth on someone's privates.
 
<panther>: You've probably asked another person to put their mouth on
yours.  Did anybody object to that?
 
wolf: well, yeah, sometimes.  some women are grossed out about putting
their mouths on men's penises, let alone tasting semen.
 
<panther>: But some don't, right?  So it's not *objectively* 'gross'
right?
 
wolf: yeah, man, you're right.  I'm mean I get this *intellectually* but
I'm still pretty nervous here.  I mean you said you've never ...  either
 
wolf: so why are you so calm?
 
<panther>: actually, i've been pretty unfair.  i've been pretty nervous,
too.  I've been just laying out for you the train of
 
<panther>: thought I've been on for a while.  What *I* am worried about
is that my roommate will have the same panicky reaction you're having.
 
<panther>: I guess I just didn't want to think about how hard it is to
go through *another* 'first time.' It's hard to face the fact
 
<panther>: that even being as 'experienced' as you think you are, there
are still things that can trip you up.  and when it has to do
 
<panther>: with emotions with another person, you don't really have
control over the outcome and that scares the hell out of me.
 
wolf: tell me about it!
 
<panther>: well, I guess I really haven't helped you feel any less
clueless.  Sorry.
 
wolf: NO!  no you've really helped a lot.  Just needed to think about
this.  You're very sort of linear in how you think about this stuff
 
wolf: it's somehow reassuring.  I actually sort of thought that because
you were older, you'd be more conservative about all this
 
wolf: stuff.  but you aren't you're MUCH more together than i am.
 
<panther>: maybe age is an advantage.  You might think about the fact
that your guy is older, been around longer.  Maybe he can be
 
<panther>: reassuring too. Give him a chance.  Another thing to keep in
mind, is that it may be a 'first' for him, also.  He may be
 
<panther>: as nervous as you are.
 
wolf: oh, man, you are SO right.  I just don't see that sometimes
because he's so .. not really *calm* .. but he just doesn't seem to
 
wolf: get afraid of things.
 
<panther>: maybe he does but he just doesn't show it.
 
wolf: yeah, actually, you've got him pegged.  The strong, silent type.
The spirit of Gary Cooper lives!
 
<panther>: hey, wolf, I've been summoned.  I'm logging out.
 
wolf: bye
 
**Signoff: panther
**Log closed at 6:52:12 PM
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A question
 
Hey, Wolf,
 
I was thinking over our most recent chat and started wondering.  If you
had such an adverse reaction to the idea of m/m sex, why are you on a
slash-oriented list?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:34:15 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A question
 
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I was thinking over our most recent chat and started wondering.  If
: you had such an adverse reaction to the idea of m/m sex, why are you
: on a slash-oriented list?
 
That's a good question.
 
While a lot of listmembers seem to get an erotic thrill from the sex in
the stories, I was drawn to the list because I identified to much with
the guys on the show.  I could see the love there and felt like reading
fanfic that dealt with that aspect of their relationship.
 
I didn't know who the good writers were at first and I didn't know how
explicit the NC-17 stuff got.  The first time I read a PWP, I was *so*
... well 'shocked' isn't exactly the work.  I just wasn't ready for it.
 
Now I actually read the less explicit stuff or read the stories with
more plot and just kind of skim the sex scenes.
 
And even when I do read those scenes, it's really just words on the
page.  It's stuff somebody *else* is doing.  But there are no pictures,
so it's more abstract.  And it's not me.  I guess what I'm saying is
that I tend to distance myself from the action.
 
Maybe I should try to read more of this stuff to get used to the idea.
 
What do you think?  Sort of like research.
 
Catcha later,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Research?
 
Hey, Wolf:
 
So you say you're reading slash for research?
 
How're you coming with that?
 
;)
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Research?
 
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: So you say you're reading slash for research?
:
: How're you coming with that?
:
: ;)
 
Man, you are SO bad! ;)
 
BTW, you guys doing anything special for the holidays?
 
I'm trying to come up with a good idea for us.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:13:08 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Holidays
 
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: BTW, you guys doing anything special for the holidays?
:
: I'm trying to come up with a good idea for us.
 
I don't know about 'special.'  We'll probably do what we did last year,
just have dinner with friends.
 
How about you guys?  What do you usually do? Do you exchange gifts or
anything like that?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:00:50 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Holidays
 
: On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: BTW, you guys doing anything special for the holidays?
:
: I'm trying to come up with a good idea for us.
 
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I don't know about 'special.'  We'll probably do what we did last
: year, just have dinner with friends.
:
: How about you guys?  What do you usually do? Do you exchange gifts or
: anything like that?
 
Having dinner with friends *is* special to me.  That's what we did last
year also.
 
I was just thinking that maybe I could do something extra with him.
Just us, you know.
 
We've done gift exchanges, but now I feel like I want to give him
something a little more, I don't know, *more.*
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:48:54 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Can't sleep
 
Hi, it's me.
 
Can't sleep.  Tried but I was having weird dreams.
 
Checked into the newsgroup and they're talking about the nature of
'friendship,' 'real love,' 'sexual love,' and whether they are really
different.
 
I'm just as confused as everybody else.  So I just lurked.  My  $0.02 is
seriously devalued tonight.
 
Roomie is working late.
 
Feel like talking, don't know about what.
 
Are you there?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Can't sleep
 
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Hi, it's me.
:
: Can't sleep.  Tried but I was having weird dreams.
:
: Checked into the newsgroup and they're talking about the nature of
: 'friendship' 'real love' 'sexual love' and whether they are really
: different.
:
: I'm just as confused as everybody else.  So I just lurked.  My  $0.02
: is seriously devalued tonight
 
: Roomie is working late.
:
: Feel like talking, don't know about what.
:
:
: Are you there?
 
Yeah.  I'm here.  Just about to head on home.
 
Sorry you're feeling so down.
 
What kinds of dreams?
 
I get strange dreams once in a while, too.  Sometimes they seem
important.  They're not easy to interpret, though.
 
I can't really stick around to 'chat.' But maybe you can 'e' me a
description of your dreams and I'll look at them in the morning when I'm
fresh.
 
Writing them down is supposed to be a good thing to do.
 
Just let me know.
 
I gotta go.  I'm beat.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: The Stuff of Dreams
 
: On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: Hi, it's me.
:
: Can't sleep.  Tried but I was having weird dreams.
 
 On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: What kinds of dreams?
:
: I get strange dreams once in a while, too.  Sometimes they seem
: important.  They're not easy to interpret, though.
:
: I can't really stick around to 'chat.' But maybe you can 'e' me a
: description of your dreams and I'll look at them in the morning when
: I'm fresh.
 
Actually, I don't need to have them interpreted for me.  I can do that.
It's just that they keep waking me up.
 
Here's one:
 
I'm swimming in a lake.  I get out of the water and I'm in a forest.
There's this beautiful oak tree. [Did you know that many pre-Christian
Europeans worshipped trees?]
 
Anyway, the tree starts to change shape.  It turns into a carved statue
of a tall, muscular man.  I realize that it's my roomie.
 
Then lightening flashes and the forest turns into a jungle and slowly
the statue starts to become flesh, come to life.
 
But then all of a sudden I'm standing there staring at the very
'statuesque' RuPaul.
 
I think "What the fuck?!" and wake up.
 
Not really scary or anything.  Just weird and disorienting.
 
Well, thanks for writing back.
 
Gonna try sleep again.  I guess I'll just have to think of the dreams as
entertainment.  Might work.
 
Going to the mental movies.  Yeah.
 
Catcha later,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: The Stuff of Dreams
 
:    On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: I can't really stick around to 'chat.' But maybe you can 'e' me a
: description of your dreams and I'll look at them in the morning when
: I'm fresh.
 
  On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: Actually, I don't need to have them interpreted for me.  I can do
: that.  It's just that they keep waking me up.
 
: [snip]
 
: Then lightening flashes and the forest turns into a jungle and slowly
: the statue starts to become flesh, come to life.
:
: But then all of a sudden I'm standing there staring at the very
: 'statuesque' RuPaul.
:
: I think "What the fuck?!" and wake up.
 
: [snip]
:
: I guess I'll just have to think of the dreams as entertainment.  Might
: work.
:
: Going to the mental movies.  Yeah.
 
LOL!
 
RuPaul at the movies.
 
None of my dreams are this funny!
 
I think I read somewhere that oak trees were some sort of symbol of
masculinity or masculine strength or something.
 
My book didn't mention RuPaul, though. :)
 
Hey, Wolf, have you thought of what to give him for the holidays?
 
Not RuPaul, your friend.  :)
 
I'm trying to decide between something practical and something more ...
emotional.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:22:14 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Gifts
 
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: Hey, Wolf, have you thought of what to give him for the holidays?
: I'm trying to decide between something practical and something more
:... emotional.
 
Well, you could always pull a Mulder and give him a "really cool key
chain."
 
This might especially work if there were a key on it.
 
Key to your heart.  [Too mushy?]
 
Key to your car?
 
I've read that if a guy lets you drive his car, it's like ... he's
giving a part of himself.  Don't know if you're like that.  Do you ever
let him use your car?  Or drive it when you're in it?
 
Never mind.  It's a weird tangent.
 
I'm pretty burnt out today.  Not enough sleep.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: The Stuff of Dreams
 
  On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
: Actually, I don't need to have them interpreted for me.  I can do
:that.  It's just that they keep waking me up.
 
[snip]
 
: Then lightening flashes and the forest turns into a jungle and slowly
: the statue starts to become flesh, come to life.  But then all of a
: sudden I'm standing there staring at the very 'statuesque' RuPaul.
:
: I think "What the fuck?!" and wake up.
 
[snip]
 
Wolf,
 
I realized that it probably wasn't fair to have you reveal your dreams
and not let you see mine.  [I shouldn't have laughed at the "RuPaul"
thing, either.]
 
This past weekend I had a pretty strange dream also.  It was like some
of my other 'portentous' dreams, which entail talking, wild animals [no
Dr. Doolittle jokes, please].
 
Here it is:
 
I was out in the middle of someplace where no house or other building
was in sight.  There was a fenced-in field.  I was busily, carefully
rebuilding a section of the fence.  The posts were about 2 1/2 inches in
diameter and the cross-wise pieces were about 6 inches wide and 8 feet
long.
 
All of a sudden, I hear a creaking noise from the distance of about a
football field away.  I turn and see my roomie, dressed like Charlton
Heston in one of those Biblical epics, and what he is doing is using his
bare hands to peel off the fencing from the posts.  One by one.
 
He collects a few pieces of fencing and places them in a huge rock-ring,
like he's going to use them to build a campfire.
 
Then he uproots one of the posts and, using a hatchet, splits it and
hacks it up.
 
He takes a couple of pieces over to the rock-ring and starts rubbing
them together.  Soon sparks erupt from the sticks and the fire is lit.
 
I start to walk over to him to ask him what he thought he was doing -
undoing all my work -- what gave him the right.
 
But before I can get there, he uproots another post and holds it up like
a walking stick and begins walking towards me.
 
When we meet in the middle, I look in his eyes and see sparks or
lightening or something.  He doesn't really look like his normal self.
He reminds me of somebody like Merlin.
 
All of a sudden, a *huge* blue snake appears, coiling and spiraling
itself around the walking stick.
 
Then I hear his voice coming from the snake's mouth asking me a
question.  Even though I can't understand the snake's language, I know
through a kind of telepathy that he's asking why I bother to re-build
these fences.  He points out that the wood is weak and old so they don't
really serve the purpose.  And there isn't anybody out there.
 
So I follow him back to the campfire and add pieces of fences to it.
 
The snake seemed to disappear or *become* the walking stick.
 
We added the stick to the fire, which flamed higher until I had to look
up to see the top of the flames.
 
And that's it.
 
Not quite as entertaining as RuPaul, but we have talking snakes... :)
 
What do you think?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
Date: Tues, 15 Dec 1998, 10:30 PM
 
"Hey Jim, whatcha watchin'?"
 
"Nothin' yet.  Just surfing."
 
"So, Jim, have you read any of the X-Files fanfic I gave you?"
 
"Some of it."
 
"Any of the Mulder/Skinner stuff?"
 
"Well, I started some but lost interest.  I decided I preferred to stick
to Mulder/Scully."
 
"Did the slashiness bother you?"
 
"No, Sandburg.  I told you that before.  I can understand wanting them
to get together.  They do seem to feel a great deal of affection for
each other.  It's just that I don't think it's appropriate for a boss to
have a romantic relationship with his subordinate.
 
"I prefer a relationship that is more on an equal footing.  Where they
are sort of complementary as partners and socially equal.  I think
Mulder and Scully are like that."
 
"What about the guys on The Watchman?"
 
"Those guys are a lot like Mulder and Scully in that way.  And they
definitely feel a lot of affection for each other.  So yeah, I can see
the possibility of that kind of relationship between those guys."
 
"So, Jim, have you ever had that kind of relationship with a guy?"
 
"You mean a sexual one, Chief?"
 
"Yeah."
 
"Nope. Have you?"
 
"No. .... Have you ever thought about it?"
 
"Yes.  ... Have you?"
 
"Yes.
 
"So... you just taking a poll, Chief?  Or do you have a point?"
 
"Just wondering... Find anything good on TV?"
 
"Nah.  I think I'll just pack it in."
 
"Me too."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998, 11:30 a.m.
 
"Sandy, this will be my first Christmas in the States and I was
thinking of having a little holiday get-together at my place Saturday
evening. Just a few friends.  Do you think you and Jim might want to
join us?"
 
"Wow, that's really nice, Megan.  Thanks. I'll pass the word on to Jim
and let you know."
 
"Fine.  Oh, I forgot, you can bring a date or an S O, whatever ..."
 
"Oh.  Well, I haven't really been dating lately, so I guess it'll just
be me."
 
"What about Jim?"
 
"I don't think he's been dating much either."
 
"No, I mean ... oh, never mind .... Well, just let me know."
 
"Will do, Megan."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:59:15 PST
From: "tracy l" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: WatchAD: Friendship vs. Love
 
I have been following the love vs. friendship thread on WatchAD with
great interest.  Both Wolf and Panther have mentioned on this list that
they are having feelings for their respective roommates.
 
So, are either of you willing to tell us how your friendship developed
into love and whether this love will turn into a "sexual" love?
 
Tracy
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:36:15 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Friendship vs. Love
 
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, tracy l wrote:
 
: I have been following the love vs. friendship thread on WatchAD with
: great interest.  Both Wolf and Panther have mentioned on this list
: that they are having feelings for their respective roommates.
:
: So, are either of you willing to tell us how your friendship developed
: into love and whether this love will turn into a "sexual" love?
 
I'd like to add to this thread but I'm hesitant to do so for a couple of
reasons.
 
For one thing, I am *so* not able to pin these terms down and define
them.
 
Considering that I never thought I'd apply some of these terms to a
relationship with a guy, [not that I thought I wouldn't, just that I had
never thought about it] you can imagine how this messes with my previous
conceptions and definitions.
 
Also, I can't be too specific in describing our relationship because I
need to protect our privacy.
 
That's why I use an ISP which allows aliases and protects against
'finger' searches.  That's also why I haven't told the list the name of
my city and have been careful not to name my roommate.
 
As much as I feel warm feelings for my listsibs, especially those who
have given me so much support in all this, I have needed to protect us
against accidental discovery.  It would not be safe for either of us if
the wrong people found out about my feelings.
 
That said, I'll try to answer Tracy's questions.
 
At first, I would say that what I felt was a kind of hero-worship that I
developed quickly due to his amazing talent. [No, not *that* kind of
'talent,' you slash sluts ;)]
 
Also, I think I looked up to him like a big brother or father figure.  I
never had a father or a brother so I really felt that was lacking.  He
knows so much, has been through so much in his life.
 
I think we began sort of bonding because we needed each other.  We
depended on each other, but for different things.
 
But then, we started just doing more things together, spending more time
having fun together.  We just flat out enjoy each other's company.
 
It has been sort of an evolution so that one day I realized that really
he had become my family, my home.
 
There is a way in which we've already 'become one.' It's in little
things:
 
We get ready to go somewhere, and if he grabs his jacket, he hands me
mine.  It's like his-coat/my-coat are one coat.
 
He starts to pour coffee and fills my cup too.  My cup and his are one
cup to him.
 
Once he wanted me to feel the finish on something, like a piece of
furniture, and he held my hand and guided it along.  His hand and mine
were one hand.
 
Sometimes when we walk down the street, we walk shoulder to shoulder, my
entire upper body staying in contact with his.  We move like one person.
 
I love him for a multitude of reasons -- his intelligence, sensitivity,
sense of humor. He's very down to earth.  He's protective of me without
being condescending.  And he really *sees* who I am and still likes me.
 
The relationship has not become a sexual one.  I haven't even told him
that I'm "in love" with him.
 
I'm still trying to figure out when the right time would be and what
words would be the right ones for making that revelation.
 
And I'd be nervous no matter what he said.
 
If he says he *is* interested, then the whole sex issue makes me really
nervous and if he isn't interested in me, then we'll be pretty awkward
for a while and we'll lose that easy closeness we've developed.
 
So there it is.
 
I don't think I've pinned down any definitions for the words "love" or
"friendship," though..
 
Who's next?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:46:43 -0To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Friendship vs. Love
 
: On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, tracy l wrote:
:
: I have been following the love vs. friendship thread on WatchAD with
: great interest.  Both Wolf and Panther have mentioned on this list
: that they are having feelings for their respective roommates.
 
: So, are either of you willing to tell us how your friendship developed
into love and whether this love will turn into a "sexual" love?
 
  On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I'd like to add to this thread but I'm hesitant to do so for a couple
: of reasons.
:
: For one thing, I am *so* not able to pin these terms down and define
: them.
 
[snip]
 
: Also, I can't be too specific in describing our relationship because I
: need to protect our privacy.
 
[snip]
 
: That said, I'll try to answer Tracy's questions.
 
[snip]
 
: The relationship has not become a sexual one.  I haven't even told him
: that I'm "in love" with him.
:
: I'm still trying to figure out when the right time would be and what
: words would be the right ones for making that revelation.
:
: And I'd be nervous no matter what he said.
:
: If he says he *is* interested, then the whole sex issue makes me
: really nervous and if he isn't interested in me, then we'll be pretty
: awkward for a while and we'll lose that easy
: closeness we've developed.
 
When I saw Tracy's question, I resisted answering at first because of
the same concerns Wolf has expressed here. That and this stuff is so
personal that I'm not sure how appropriate it is to discuss it on a
semi-public list like this.  I'm a pretty private guy.
 
But I didn't want Wolf to be alone in exposing his feelings, so I will
join him here.  I'll just stay general enough so I can be comfortable
discussing it.
 
My feelings for my friend are similar to the ones Wolf has for his
roommate.  Not identical but similar.  I think different circumstances
evoke different emotions, maybe.
 
We didn't start out comfortably.  I needed his help and I resented him
for it.  I was pretty cold to him at first.
 
And he was so incredibly different from me and so *young* that I
couldn't see that we had that much in common.
 
But any guff I aimed at him at first just rolled off him like water off
a duck's back.  It's not like he accepted the abuse; it's more like he
saw through it, like he knew that it didn't mean anything about *him,*
that it said more about the state of my soul at the time.
 
I was soul-sick and over time he's ministered to me, healing me.
 
But at first, I'm sure our friends saw us as the unlikeliest pair of
friends imaginable.  We resembled no less than a pairing of Oscar the
Grouch and Elmo.
 
But that changed pretty quickly. There is just something so *likeable*
about the guy.
 
Wolf mentions wishing he had had a brother and finding one in his
friend.
 
Well, I did grow up with a little brother.  But due to circumstances I
don't wish to discuss, we haven't gotten along too well.  When my friend
and I became roommates, it was like I got a second chance.
 
Wolf speaks of the two of them 'becoming one.'
 
In my case, I feel as though my roommate is part of me.  A vital part.
Like if I lost him, I'd die.
 
I love him for his unusual intelligence, enthusiasm, energy, compassion,
and loyalty.
 
For the fact that he forges ahead unintimidated by much of anything.  In
fact, in that sense, he is truly heroic.
 
I can't really trace the whens and hows of the changes the way Wolf did.
I just know that they happened.
 
Someone else on the list asked whether friends *should* move to 'the
next step.' That is a question I ask myself daily.
 
I don't know what will happen with this friendship.  I'm guessing I'm
just as nervous as Wolf is in his situation.
 
I sometimes wish it were my roommate who was in my position.  Maybe he'd
know what to do.  Maybe he'd be less daunted by all this stuff.
 
There you have it.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998, 7:00 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim, call Megan."
 
"What about, Chief?"
 
"She's invited us to her place Saturday.  Just a small get-together for
the holidays with a few friends.  She wants to know if you want to go."
 
"Are we supposed to bring anything?"
 
"She didn't say.  Oh, yeah, she said we could bring dates.  But I told
her I haven't been dating much lately so I'll just, y'know, go
dateless."
 
"You haven't been dating?"
 
"Not for a while.  How about you?"
 
"It's been a long while."
 
"Well, we don't *have* to take anybody. It could be just us."
 
"Fine with me.  OK, I'll give her a call.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Thanks
 
   On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: When I saw Tracy's question, I resisted answering at first because of
: the same concerns Wolf has expressed here. That and this stuff is so
: personal that I'm not sure how appropriate it is to discuss it on a
: semi-public list like this.  I'm a pretty private guy.
:
: But I didn't want Wolf to be alone in exposing his feelings, so I will
: join him here.  I'll just stay general enough so I can be comfortable
: discussing it
 
Panther,
 
It is SO cool that you did this!
 
I'm really ... I don't know ... *touched* that you would open up so much
just so I wouldn't be so alone out there.  Considering how private you
seem to be, this must have been really hard!
 
Just wanted to say that.
 
You're a really great guy.  I hope your friend appreciates you.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998, 11:45 a.m.
 
"Hi, Jim.  Did Sandy talk to you?"
 
"Yeah.  He mentioned your party Saturday."
 
"Are the two of you coming?"
 
"Sure.  Should we bring anything?"
 
"Maybe a beverage... May I ask a question?"
 
"What, Connor?"
 
"Sandy said that he hasn't been dating lately."
 
"Yeah ... and?"
 
"Do you think he'd appreciate my introducing him to a friend of mine?"
 
"You mean, like a blind date?"
 
"Well, no.  Just an introduction.  She's a very nice person and quite
smart.  A student at the university."
 
"Do what you want, Connor.  He's an adult.  He can decide what he wants.
I don't have anything to do with it."
 
"Well, I just thought, since you're so close to him that you might know
..."
 
"Connor, it's not up to me.  Can we just get off this?"
 
"Sorry, Jim.  I didn't know this topic was ..."
 
"It's closed."
 
"OK.  Well, give my regards to Sandy."
 
"I'll do that."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:16:01 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Research?
 
  On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: So you say you're reading slash for research?
:
: How're you coming with that?
 
Well, it's very sort of interesting really.
 
I sort of snuck up on it, first reading some PG-13 stuff, then R, then
NC-17.  At that point, I found that I was skimming the stuff pretty
fast.
 
So I forced myself to slow down and really *read* the passages I had
been skimming.  And I noticed that the truly graphic stuff started to
look all the same, no matter what the rest of the story was about.  And
there is something about the repetition that makes it less ...  shocking
.. or something.
 
But then my mind started wandering and I was wondering how accurate the
descriptions really were.  As I understand it, most of the writers are
not men.  I mean these are writers without penises or prostates writing
about these same body parts.
 
The other thing that just sort of jumped into my mind [and yes, I should
have thought about this before, but I didn't] is that I had been
thinking about this [when I *could* bring myself to think about this]
as*me* doing *him.* But it could go the other way.  I mean, to be fair,
it*should* go both ways, shouldn't it?
 
So yes I've been doing 'research' and mostly it's made the whole thing
just more concrete and less 'unknown.' I guess that's a step.
 
You've never really said how you feel about this stuff.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998, 4:45 p.m.
 
"Megan, hi!"
 
"Sandy, may I ask you a question?"
 
"Sure."
 
"Well, I was wondering, since you're not really seeing anyone at the
moment... maybe you would be willing to meet a friend of mine?"
 
"Megan! Matchmaking -- *you*?"
 
"Well, yes.  I wouldn't normally do this but she's new in town and ..."
 
"I'm sorry, Megan.  I'm sure she's really nice, but I think I should say
'no.'"
 
"Then, you *are* seeing someone? ... Oh, sorry, none of my business."
 
"Thanks."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:54:54 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: The Stuff of Dreams
 
  On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: Wolf,
:
:  [snip]
:
: This past weekend I had a pretty strange dream also.  It was like some
: of my other 'portentous' dreams, which entail talking, wild animals
: [no Dr. Doolittle jokes, please].
:
: Here it is:
: [Description of dream snipped]
:
: Not quite as entertaining as RuPaul, but we have talking snakes...
: :)
: What do you think?
 
Panther,
 
That was a way cool dream!
 
Do you really think of your roommate as wise or intuitive?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:28:52 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Research?
 
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: [snip]
 
:  I mean these are writers without penises or prostates writing about
: these same body parts.
:
: The other thing that just sort of jumped into my mind [and yes, I
: L should have thought about this before, but I didn't] is that I had
: been thinking about this [when I *could* bring myself to think about
: this] as *me* doing *him.* But it could go the other way.  I :mean, to
: be fair, it *should* go both ways, shouldn't it?
:
: So yes I've been doing 'research' and mostly it's made the whole thing
: just more concrete and less 'unknown.' I guess that's a step.
:
: You've never really said how you feel about this stuff.
 
Wolf,
 
I never thought I'd say this, but you really are getting too hung up in
the details.  You need to back up and look at the big picture.
 
In the big picture this isn't *about* body parts and 'doing' somebody.
 
At least not for me.
 
Maybe that's why I have the same reaction to some of those portions of
fanfic that you do.
 
In those stories, it's almost like first the camera is across the table
from them, then in their faces, and then somehow gets stuck up their
backsides.  I'm no longer looking at a whole person at that point.
 
When you explained what you loved about the guy, you didn't talk about
his body parts.  In fact, you didn't even talk about what he looked
like. [Unless maybe he looks like an oak tree or RuPaul :)]
 
You talked about him 'really *seeing* you' and 'being protective' and
things like that.
 
Well, if he does really see you, he'll know that you're nervous.
 
And if it's mutual and he's protective, then he's likely to help you
through this.
 
So I think you should just lay off the 'research' and start thinking
about talking to your *friend.*
 
Don't mean to sound so harsh.  I'm nervous too.
 
For me, physical stuff is not that difficult; it's the talking.
 
Anyway, you asked me what I thought, so there it is.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:25:04 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Dream
 
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: That was a way cool dream!
:
: Do you really think of your roommate as wise or intuitive?
 
Intuitive, yes.  Most definitely.
 
But wise?  I've never thought about that.
 
It's hard to think of him as 'wise' when he's so young and so immature
at times.  But he knows a lot and loves to explain things.
 
Maybe he's a 'wise man in training'  :)
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
 
**Log file opened at: 12/17/98 10:05:06 PM
**Channel created at Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:04:04 PM
**Mode change "+i" on panther by panther
**wolf ([email protected]) has joined the channel #watch
 
panther: hi
 
<wolf>: never would have thought *you* woulda asked for a chat.
 
panther: yeah, well, i couldn't sleep and stuff is on my mind.  Where
are you?
 
<wolf>: in my office.  where are you?
 
panther: went back to work.
 
<wolf>: so what's on your mind?  you told him, yet?
 
panther: no, not yet.  did you ever wonder if you really *know* him?
 
<wolf>: you mean like does he have secrets?
 
panther: not exactly.  like you go along thinking you know a guy and
he's not the way he used to be.  like he changed.  not all at once.
 
panther: just a little bit at a time over a few years until he's
different but your mind hasn't really caught up to reality.
 
<wolf>: that sort of makes sense.  it's kind of like when you look in
the mirror and realize that you haven't really looked at your own face
 
<wolf>: for a while and then there are these lines around your mouth and
eyes that didn't used to be there.  But the picture of yourself
 
<wolf>: that you carry around inside is maybe 5 years younger.  and it's
a shock when they don't match -- the inner picture and the outer image.
 
panther: well, my inner picture is about 20 years younger :)
 
panther: but yeah it's something like that.  over the past month or so,
i've been finding out that my roommate has changed in some of his
 
panther: behavior and i didn't even notice.  he's gotten a lot more
serious, for one thing.
 
<wolf>: and this is a problem because...?
 
panther: i guess it's not a problem.  but i've been making assumptions
about how he'd take my 'confession' based on what turns out to be
 
panther: false information.
 
<wolf>: like what? did he suddenly burst out of a closet or something?
 
panther: nothing like that.  let's just say that i was wrong about the
idea that he'd only drool over women.
 
<wolf>: well, that's good news -- right?
 
panther: but he doesn't seem to be drooling over anyone at the moment.
it's like he's totally shut down that part of his social life.
 
<wolf>: does he seem, like, *depressed,* like his libido is suppressed?
 
panther: no, i don't think so.  it's just that he used to have this
really active social life and now ... he doesn't.
 
<wolf>: well, maybe he's just getting older.  I party a lot less now,
myself, than i did about 5 years ago.  i'm just too busy working.
 
panther: did you stop 'drooling'?
 
<wolf>: that presumes i ever did. ;)  well, no i didn't stop.  it's more
like i'm quieter about it now.  i'm still appreciative of beauty
 
<wolf>: but really i sort of narrowed my interests.  maybe that's
something that naturally happens at my age.  but wouldn't you know that?
 
panther: i think i was always a lot more serious than this guy and my
life experiences have been very different from his, so i can't really
 
panther: judge him by me. i'm just wondering why i never noticed the
changes while they were happening. there must have been clues but i
missed them.
 
<wolf>: it's well known that our preconceptions about a person keeps us
from picking up on those sorts of things.
 
<wolf>: my roomie has surprised me a bit, also.  i thought for sure he'd
be disgusted by the idea of slash, but he wasn't.  not at all.
 
<wolf>: it's made me re-evaluate how worried i should be.
 
panther: so why are you waiting until January to tell him?
 
<wolf>: well, i don't know.  assuming we get to go to LA, i was just
thinking it would be better if it was all part of the adventure.
 
<wolf>: you don't think so?
 
panther: why not Christmas or New Year's? Why not tonight?
 
<wolf>: not ready.  are you?
 
panther: no.  i'm worried that if he's not really who i thought he was
... well, then who is he?
 
<wolf>: well, he can't be *that* different.  you're not looking for the
pod, are you?
 
panther: no pods. :)  But i really start to wonder about *me* I'm
supposed to be good at *seeing* things, but i missed this.
 
<wolf>: this stuff is pretty normal.  We both need to start looking with
open minds, with new eyes.
 
<wolf>: it's getting kinda late.  I better log off.
 
panther: OK
 
**Signoff: wolf
**Log closed at 10:52:12 PM
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: How do you know?
 
I was thinking about our chat last night and started worrying.
 
If you don't notice that a guy has changed, has become different from
the way you remember him -- then how do you know that you really
love*him* and not this old memory?
 
I don't want to spill my guts and then discover that I'm talking to the
wrong guy.  You know what I mean?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:45:42 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: How do you know?
 
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I was thinking about our chat last night and started worrying.
:
: If you don't notice that a guy has changed, has become different from
: the way you remember him -- then how do you know that you really love
: *him* and not this old memory?
:
: I don't want to spill my guts and then discover that I'm talking to
: the wrong guy.  You know what I mean?
 
Hey, Panther,
 
I think it's *my* turn to say 'get a grip.'
 
I mean, how different is he *really*?
 
Think about all the things you've said about him -- the stuff that draws
you to him.
 
You said he's become more 'serious,' parties less, could possibly be
attracted to men as well as women.
 
Does this really change him?
 
Is he any less intelligent, energetic, enthusiastic, compassionate,
loyal, nurturing, dauntless?
 
Those are the things you named.
 
Now you can add 'serious' and 'open-minded' to the list -- right?
 
I really don't see the problem.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998, 7:30 p.m.
 
"Hey Jim!  We're a trend!"
 
"What trend would that be, Sandburg?  There been a rash of sentinel-
anthropologist partnerships?"
 
"Hey, that would be great!  But no, that's not it.  I've just read this
fascinating article that my colleague Meredith wrote.  She's great, Jim,
you would really like her.  Maybe she'll stop by on her way to Alaska,
when she does her field study."
 
"And Meredith says we're a trend?  How does she even know about us?"
 
"Well, not US-us.  Just people like us.  This is what she said:
 
There's a current trend in the US away from spending the holidays
with family and toward spending it with localized groups of
friends and acquaintances -- mostly as a result of neolocal
residence patterns and the rising price of transportation between
distant locations.
 
"That's us!"
 
"'Neolocal residence patterns'?  Don't you anthropologists speak
English?"
 
"That *is* English, Jim.  Basically, what she's saying is that people in
the U.S. have been moving farther and farther away from their homes of
origin, and they have all spread out.  It's sort of like a familial
diaspora.
 
"And because they live so far away and it's starting to cost more than
it used to to go 'home' for the holidays, many people are opting not to
go.
 
"But they want to celebrate and feel a sense of 'family' so they are
adopting their close friends and sometimes co-workers as sort of
surrogate family members.
 
That's us!"
 
"You think of me as 'family,' Chief?"
 
"Yeah, of course!  Didn't you *know* that?"
 
"Now that you point it out, yeah, I did, I just hadn't put it into words
for myself, before. ... Family -- that's great.  I like that.
 
"So which surrogate family member *am* I, Chief?  You *can't* mean I'm a
stand-in for *Naomi.*"
 
"<cough-cough> Jim, don't say stuff like that when I'm drinking, man!
No, I would say that only Naomi can do 'Naomi.'"
 
"I hear that."
 
"Very funny, Jim.
 
"There must be *something* I can offer you in her absence, Chief.  In
fact, I know *just* the thing!  I know it's your favorite!"
 
"Jim?"
 
"What would you say to 'tongue,' Chief? ... Chief?"
 
"<blink blink> That would be great, Jim."
 
"You OK?"
 
"I'm just ... thanks, Jim."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998, About 9:00 p.m.
 
"Nice party, Connor."
 
"Why, *thanks,* Jim.  Glad you're having a good time."
 
"So ... is *she* the one you're trying to fix Sandburg up with?"
 
"No, my friend couldn't make it tonight.  But it wouldn't have worked
out, anyway."
 
"Why not?  Sandburg turn out not to be her type?"
 
"Well, I had rather thought that Sandy was *exactly* her type.  And that
he would go for *her.* But he wasn't interested, so I didn't push him."
 
"Wasn't interested?  Sandburg?  You've got to be kidding."
 
"No.  I asked him if he'd be willing to meet her and he said 'no.'"
 
"No?"
 
"That's right.  He didn't say, exactly, but I got the impression there
was somebody else."
 
"Somebody else?"
 
"Well, I could be wrong."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998, 7:45 p.m.
 
"I thought you said you weren't dating, Chief."
 
"I'm not."
 
"Well, Connor must've gotten it wrong, then."
 
"Gotten *what* wrong, Jim?"
 
"The other day, before the party, she was sort of getting my opinion
about whether she should set you up with some woman friend of hers and -
-"
 
"Oh, yeah, she was trying to play 'matchmaker,' but I told her 'no.'"
 
"That's what she told me, but she seemed to have the impression that you
were involved with someone and that was why.  But you said you weren't
dating."
 
"And that's true."
 
"What's true?"
 
"All of it.  Well sort of.  I'm *interested* in someone.  A *lot*.  But
I don't think they'd be interested in me so I'm very sorta hesitant to
approach them.  So we're not dating."
 
"You mean you would turn down someone else even though there's nothing
actually going on ..."
 
"Yeah, Jim."
 
"This is new for you -- I'm surprised."
 
"Yeah, the whole thing is really new for me.  I'm just working up the
nerve to tell them.  Eventually."
 
"Must be really important."
 
"Yeah.  I think they may really be 'the one.'"
 
"oh."
 
"Jim?"
 
"Nothing, Chief.  Hope it all works out for you."
 
"Hope so too."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:05:00 PST
From: tracy l <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Have you told your roomie yet?  (was Friendship vs.
Love)
 
Hi there Panther and Wolf,
 
Haven't heard from you two lately.  Is everything OK?  I think you were
both contemplating talking to your roommate about your feelings. It
seems to me that the holiday season of peace and goodwill is a great
time to open up to your roomies about your feelings.
 
Have a wonderful holiday season.
 
Tracy
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:15:42 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: He who hesitates ...
 
Wolf,
 
I blew it.  I waited too long and now it seems as though he's found
someone else.
 
Don't make the same mistake.  Then, maybe at least *one* of us can be
happy.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:43:46 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: He who hesitates ...
 
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I blew it.  I waited too long and now it seems as though he's found
: someone else.
:
: Don't make the same mistake.  Then, maybe at least *one* of us can be
: happy.
 
Oh, man, Panther.
 
I'm *so* sorry to hear this.
 
I guess you're not going to want to tell him, now.
 
Are you still going to try to go to the rally?  Maybe we can
commiserate.  Go out for beer, or something.
 
If you need to talk, just write me -- OK?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998, 7:15 p.m.
 
"Jim?"
 
"Hmm?"
 
"I know things didn't really work out with Carolyn and all, but have you
ever thought about ... finding someone ... ?"
 
"I don't know, Chief, I'm getting kind of old."
 
"Jim, man, you are *so* not old! I can't believe you think that.  That's
gotta be, like, an excuse or something."
 
"Well, it's easier than thinking about how my relationships don't go
very far."
 
"Have you *tried* to find anybody?  Or been *interested* in anybody?"
 
"Have been interested -- for a while now -- but it seems as though it's
been one-sided."
 
"Oh, man, Jim -- that sucks.  I *so* know how that is.  I'm there
myself.  Well, whoever it is -- it's *their* loss -- that's all I can
say."
 
"Thanks for the vote of confidence, Chief."
 
"Anytime, Jim.  I'm your partner, with you all the way.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998, about 8:00 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim."
 
"What is it, Sandburg?"
 
"Well, I was thinking -- "
 
"Always a dangerous moment..."
 
"Very funny, Jim.  As I was saying, when I was so rudely interrupted ...
I was thinking that since we're both suffering from the tortures of
unrequited love ..."
 
"What, Chief?"
 
"Well, I was thinking we could just sort of hang out together on
Christmas.  Sort of give each other some moral support.  After all,
we're like family now -- right?"
 
"Haven't had much luck with family, either, Chief.  Guess you'll have to
take the lead on that."
 
"Well, my experience with family is not particularly typical.  Naomi and
I have been more like good friends than mother and son.  So that's my
model.  It's like the categories are fused together -- best friends*are*
family."
 
"I guess I can do that."
 
"You already do, Jim."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:33:21 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Have you told your roomie yet?  (was Friendship vs.
Love)
 
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, tracy l wrote
 
: Hi there Panther and Wolf,
:
: Haven't heard from you two lately.  Is everything OK?  I think you
: were both contemplating talking to your roommate about your feelings.
: It seems to me that the holiday season of peace and goodwill is a
: great time to open up to your roomies about your feelings.
:
: Have a wonderful holiday season.
 
Thank you for your good wishes, Tracy.
 
Well, everything is not OK, but I'm hanging in there.
 
Some complications seem to have arisen so that I don't feel comfortable
taking that step at the moment.
 
But I would like to take this opportunity to thank my listsibs out there
for being so supportive of me these last few weeks.  I have *so* needed
it!
 
I plan to spend the season with my roomie.  He may not feel the same way
that I do about this, but he's like family to me.  He'll always be
family to me.  No matter what.
 
Here's hoping that all of you can feel this much belonging with your
friends and families!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:07:23 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Flavors
 
I just want to say that this whole discussion about the flavors of
ejaculate [I am so glad the door to my office is locked] is rather
disconcerting.
 
I realize I'm getting ahead of myself, since I'm not sure how or whether
I'm going to tell him how I feel about him.
 
But I thought that just in case things worked out, I should know what I
was getting into, so to speak.  And I thought well, since I'm a guy, I
could at least do a little research on myself to see what a guy tastes
like. [Oh, god, this is *so* TMI!]
 
And now you're telling me that we don't all taste alike, so I can't even
know that.
 
I hope someone can clear this up.  Is there *any* way to predict these
things?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:30:55 -0500
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
If he's a beer drinker he'll be bitter, what ever he eats he will taste
like. [30 years married and experienced lots of flavors same guy]
 
--S'Belle
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, S'Belle wrote:
 
: If he's a beer drinker he'll be bitter, what ever he eats he will
: taste like. [30 years married and experienced lots of flavors same
: guy]
 
Are we talking hamburger-flavored?
 
How does lasagna translate?
 
Would beer overwhelm everything else?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:08:24 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
   [snip]
 
: I realize I'm getting ahead of myself, since I'm not sure how or
: whether I'm going to tell
: him how I feel about him.
:
: But I thought that just in case things worked out, I should know what
: I was getting into, so to speak.  And I thought well, since I'm a guy,
: I could at least do a little research on myself to see what a guy
: tastes like. [Oh, god, this is *so* TMI!]
:
: And now you're telling me that we don't all taste alike, so I can't
: even know that.
 
I have one question: what the hell difference does it make?
 
Several ladies on this list have described a variety of flavors and only
one reported any revulsion [and that was related not to flavor].
 
A few have reported that they have repeated the experience.  So whatever
the flavor, it can't be *that* bad.
 
It's not about flavor.  It's about love.
 
Frankly, I'm more worried about rejection than aesthetics.
 
--Panther
 
PS. No offense intended to people who want to discuss this, especially
in the interests of creating realistic fiction.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:36:34 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
: On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
:
:    [snip]
:
: I realize I'm getting ahead of myself, since I'm not sure how or
: whether I'm going to tell him how I feel about him.
:
: But I thought that just in case things worked out, I should know what
: I was getting into, so to speak.  And I thought well, since I'm a guy,
: getting into, so to speak.  And I thought well, since I'm a guy,
: I could at least do a little research on myself to see what a guy
: tastes like. [Oh, god, this is *so* TMI!]
:
: And now you're telling me that we don't all taste alike, so I can't
:
: even know that.
 
    On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I have one question: what the hell difference does it make?
:
: Several ladies on this list have described a variety of flavors and
: only one reported any revulsion [and that was related not to flavor].
:
: A few have reported that they have repeated the experience.  So
: whatever the flavor, it can't be *that* bad.
:
: It's not about flavor.  It's about love.
:
: Frankly, I'm more worried about rejection than aesthetics.
 
Hey, man, who pissed in *your* beer?!
 
No need to go off on me on the list.  I told you I'm nervous.
 
Maybe I think and talk about the concrete, physical stuff because I feel
helpless about the emotional stuff.  Did that ever occur to you?!
 
I can't help it if you're feeling rejected.  Don't take it out on me.
 
I have enough to deal with.  We were snowed in over Christmas here.  We
both were morose assholes because we were pretty much trapped in the
apartment.  And I couldn't keep my mind off the fact that he's in a
crappy mood because he's pining over somebody *else* -- someone who
can't see how great he can be.
 
And it's frankly getting harder to be sympathetic or encouraging.
 
I mean, exactly how sincere can I be when I tell him that someday I hope
they'll come around or whatever?
 
I want him to be happy and all, but I could use a little happiness
myself.
 
I could use a little sympathy here.  I don't need to hear it from
another cranky guy.  Especially when I put myself sort of out there on
the list.
 
I thought we were forming sort of a friendship here. You have been
really decent to me until now.  What happened?!  We need each other's
support in this -- don't you think so?
 
Did something happen to you over Christmas to make you so cranky?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:06:19 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Apology
 
:    On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: I have one question: what the hell difference does it make?
 
[snip]
:
: It's not about flavor.  It's about love.
:
: Frankly, I'm more worried about rejection than aesthetics.
 
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Hey, man, who pissed in *your* beer?!
:
: No need to go off on me on the list.  I told you I'm nervous.
 
[snip]
 
: I have enough to deal with.  We were snowed in over Christmas here.
 
[snip]
 
: I mean, exactly how sincere can I be when I tell him that someday I
: hope they'll come  around or whatever?
:
: I want him to be happy and all, but I could use a little happiness
: myself.
 
  [snip]
 
: You have been really decent to me until now.  We need each other's
: support in this -- don't you think so?
:
: Did something happen to you over Christmas to make you so cranky?
 
Wolf,
 
I apologize.
 
You're right.  I should have been gentler in my comments, especially on
list.
 
And you're right that the events of this past week have made it a lot
harder for me to be gentle. Something I'm not exactly good at in the
first place.
 
As you know, most of the Pacific Northwest was under snow for several
days.  We didn't get out much, either.
 
Turns out he's 'pining' [as you put it] over somebody that does not even
know he's interested.  How can I fight *that*?!
 
Does a best friend say "Forget about her -- the unattainable woman of
your dreams.  Take me -- the aging, balding *guy* you've seen over the
breakfast table sporting 'bedhead'"?  Frankly, I don't think this is
likely to fly, do you?
 
You're right that we need to support each other.  I just don't know how
to advise you.
 
Frankly, I wouldn't care what he tasted like; I'd just like him to want
me to.
 
And just telling you that is pushing the envelope of what is too private
for me to discuss about myself.
 
I hope this clears things up between us.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:17:41 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Apology
 
 On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
  [snip]
 
: Frankly, I wouldn't care what he tasted like; I'd just like him to
: want me to.
:
: And just telling you that is pushing the envelope of what is too
: private for me to discuss about myself.
:
: I hope this clears things up between us.
 
Thanks, man.  This clears up a lot.  I should have known there was
something like this behind so much sarcasm.
 
I appreciate your revealing this to me. I know how private you prefer to
be, so this means a lot.
 
I think I'll take your advice and stop focusing on details that I'll
probably never be in the position to face, anyway.
 
Are you still going to do your 'confession' or are you just going to
give up on it?
 
I'm trying to decide on this for myself.
 
On the one hand, he is really obviously 'pining' [I love that word] over
some mystery person.  He mopes around and is getting impossible to talk
to.
 
But he says they're not really interested.  So really there's no
relationship to break up, so if I say something, I'm not, like, doing
anything *wrong.*
 
But the likelihood of rejection is greater.
 
What's your thinking on this?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 29 Dec 1998 13:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: What's a Best Friend to do?
 
   On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Are you still going to do your 'confession' or are you just going to
: give up on it?
:
 
[snip]
 
: But he says they're not really interested.  So really there's no
: relationship to break up, so if I say something, I'm not, like, doing
: anything *wrong.*
:
: But the likelihood of rejection is greater.
:
: What's your thinking on this?
 
Wolf,
 
Here's my thinking:
 
Let's imagine that you were my roommate.  Let's say you told me that
there was someone else, someone that might very well be the 'love of
your life.' Someone so important that you won't even consider dating
anyone else.
 
And then I'm supposed to just push through all that, ask you to forget
about it and go for me?
 
I can't do it.
 
As his best friend, I could not ask him to turn away from something so
important to him.  As a true friend, I would have to support him in what
is best for *him.*
 
Would *you* want a friend of yours to try to turn you from the person
you say you want?  Would that even be a possibility?
 
And if you were, hypothetically, my roommate and I were able to dissuade
you -- how could I trust you?  If you could give up on the 'love of your
life'?  How could I trust someone so fickle?  How could I then be so
sure that you wouldn't later be turned from me?
 
So I guess what I'm saying here is that really there is no hope.  I will
just have to carry on as I always have.  I've practiced being stoic for
nearly 40 years.  It's almost easy.
 
So that's my take on it.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998, 2:30 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim, do you have any plans for Thursday night?"
 
"Thursday night?"
 
"Yeah, New Year's Eve, Jim.  You have any plans?"
 
"Not really, Chief.  You?"
 
"There's going to be a small party given by the Department.  I was
thinking of going.  We can bring someone and so I thought ..."
 
"You're asking me to go to a party where there's likely to be a bunch of
drunk academics? Look, Sandburg, I already don't understand what they're
talking about half the time -- and that's without the slurred speech."
 
"You know, sometimes you are *such* a dick!  I went to Megan's Christmas
party, where there were a bunch of *cops.* Some of them were drinking.
What *is* your problem?!"
 
"Sorry, Chief. You're right.  Are you sure you don't want to ask
somebody out, maybe some girl to help you get over your mystery crush?
 
"No, Jim.  That's just not going to happen."
 
"So it's just us, again.  This is getting to be a habit."
 
"Do you mind?"
 
"No.  Not at all."
 
"Because if you don't want to hang out with me on New Year's ... I mean,
I'd understand."
 
"Nobody else I'd rather hang out with, Chief."
 
"But I thought.."
 
"What, Chief?"
 
"Nothing."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:37:23 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
Wolf wondered:
 
> And now you're telling me that we don't all taste alike, so I can't
> even know that.
>
> I hope someone can clear this up.  Is there *any* way to predict these
> things?
 
Well, Wolf, my experience is rather limited to one "flavor" but I must
have lucked out in the draw because I've been sampling it for 19 years
now and have liked it from the beginning.
 
My instinct says if the natural scent of your partner is pleasing to
you, then the rest of it will be also. But, as I said, I'm limited to a
sampling of one so I could be way off.
 
Deb
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:43:51 -0800 (PST)
16:46:51 -0800 (PST)
From: allison french <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
To Panther:
 
Here, here!
 
And for Wolf: In moments of passionate "love" the taste and
flavor*become* the person you love....and I have been lucky enough to
experience such overwhelming "passionate love" for an individual that
there was no part of their body or "bodily fluid" that I didn't love or
want to taste.... That *need* to be as close as possible, to be inside
or have that individual inside you...to taste as much as you
can....touch all that you can....meld yourself to them, becomes the all
consuming passion!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998, 3:30 p.m.
 
"Sandy, you doing anything for New Year's?"
 
"Yeah, I'm thinking of going to something at the University.  Why?"
 
"I just thought if you weren't doing anything ... but you are.  ...  So
... um, do you mind if I ask a personal question?"
 
"Depends.  What do you want to know, Megan?"
 
"Are you and Jim ... well ... dating?"
 
"No, Megan, I told you before.  I'm not dating these days.  And Jim says
he isn't either."
 
"No I meant.."
 
"What?"
 
"Well, it's almost like you and Jim are dating ... each other..."
 
"You mean because we go to parties together?  No. ... No.  We are, as
they say, 'just good friends.' Best friends.  Why?  You hear rumors
about us?"
 
"No.  No rumors.  It just crossed my mind, that's all.  You two are very
close and ... well ... not every pair of 'best friends' go to every
party together in lieu of a date or an S O ... so ... as I said, it
crossed my mind."
 
"Well, just don't mention this to Jim -- I don't think he'd appreciate
people meddling into his private life.  OK?"
 
"Promise."
 
"Thanks, Megan."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:45:50 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: This Weird Thing Just Happened
 
I just had to write, man, because this weird thing just happened earlier
today.
 
A mutual friend of ours actually asked me whether my roommate and I are
'dating.'
 
She said it had to do with the fact that we are so close and do so much
stuff together.  And it's true that neither of us is seeing anyone else.
 
I'm wondering whether my emotional state is sort of showing up on her
intuitive radar or something.  I mean, she's very perceptive about some
things.  She definitely asks questions about us that no one else asks.
 
And if *she* is getting vibes from me, maybe *he* is and he's just not
talking about it.
 
This whole thing is really just wearing me out.
 
I got your other e-mail about the reasons for NOT trying to turn your
guy from the 'love of his life' to you.
 
But maybe we should just make a pact to just announce how WE feel
without trying to convince our friends to feel the same way for us.
 
That way, it would be out there.  And we wouldn't have compromised
anybody's integrity.
 
Things couldn't get any worse than they already are, right?
 
Or could they?  What if he feels too awkward living with me after that?
I don't want to be tiptoe-ing around making sure that nothing I say or
do could make him self-conscious or anything.  I mean the guy usually
has no problem going around in just a towel or just his boxers.  I
wouldn't want him to feel like he couldn't do that.  A guy should be
able to just be himself in his own apartment, right?
 
Gotta go.
 
There's a paper bag with my name on it.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:16:53 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: This Weird Thing Just Happened
 
  On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: This whole thing is really just wearing me out.
:
: I got your other e-mail about the reasons for NOT trying to turn your
: guy from the 'love of his life' to you.
:
: But maybe we should just make a pact to just announce how WE feel
: without trying to convince our friends to feel the same way for us.
:
: That way, it would be out there.  And we wouldn't have compromised
: anybody's integrity.
:
: Things couldn't get any worse than they already are, right?
 
   [snip]
 
Wolf,
 
You want us to face guys who have basically announced that there is
someone else.  An unattainable someone else.  But someone else,
nevertheless.
 
And you want us to just quit dancing around and come out with it.
 
Not try to ask for anything -- just make a statement.  Put the ball in
their court.
 
Then, what?  We sit back and wait for the rejection.  Get it over with.
And go on.
 
I'll say this: you've got guts.
 
When you're done breathing into that paper bag, you want to go first?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 29 Dec 1998 17:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Do I want to go first?
 
On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
[snip]
 
: And you want us to just quit dancing around and come out with    it.
 
[snip]
 
: I'll say this: you've got guts.
:
: When you're done breathing into that paper bag, you want to go first?
 
Who says we have to take turns?
 
We can both go simultaneously.
 
I'll give us both a deadline:  We tell them by noon January 9.  Sooner
if possible.  Or we shut up forever.
 
Deal?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998, about 7:00 p.m.
 
"Jim, have you been reading the Watchman fanfic, lately?"
 
"A bit.  Why?"
 
"Have you noticed the way Joe and Jake *talk* to each other in some of
those stories?"
 
"What do you mean, Chief?"
 
"Kinda mushy for guys, don't you think?"
 
"Yeah, sometimes. Why?"
 
"Well, when you were in a relationship, did you use to talk like that?
Mushy talk?  Cutesy nicknames?"
 
"And this is your business, because...?"
 
"I bet you did.  I bet you're really a big mush!"
 
"Look, Sandburg, what makes you think I'd get into cute nicknames and
stuff?"
 
"I don't know -- what made you call me your 'little guppy'?"
 
"I never."
 
"You did.  When we went fishing with Simon that time when we ran into
the poachers.  You said something like, 'Ready to learn how to fly-fish,
my little guppy?'"
 
"OK, so I did.  That doesn't mean I'm a mush."
 
"Well, if you say something that cute to your roommate, I can just
imagine ..."
 
"And you want to imagine because ... why?  Is this for one of your
chapters, Sandburg -- 'Mating Habits of the Urban Sentinel'?"
 
"I'll ignore that. "
 
"Well, how about you, Sandburg?  You do the mushy stuff?"
 
"Maybe.  ... OK, well, yeah."
 
"So what makes you think Joe and Jake are any different from us, Chief?"
 
"I guess you're right.  I guess we have more in common than I realized."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:02:18 -0500
From: Karen <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Flavors
 
Wolf said:
 
> I just want to say that this whole discussion about the flavors of
> ejaculate [I am so glad the door to my office is locked] is rather
> disconcerting.
>
> I realize I'm getting ahead of myself, since I'm not sure how or
> whether I'm going to tell him how I feel about him.
>
> But I thought that just in case things worked out, I should know what
> I was getting into, so to speak.  And I thought well, since I'm a guy,
> I could at least do a little research on myself to see what a guy
> tastes like. [Oh, god, this is *so* TMI!]
>
> And now you're telling me that we don't all taste alike, so I can't
> even know that.
>
> I hope someone can clear this up.  Is there *any* way to predict these
> things?
>
> --Wolf
 
Nope! I've heard that it depends on what you eat, and that vegetarians
taste better, but that wasn't my experience. I had a boyfriend who
became a vegetarian during our relationship, and it really didn't change
the taste at all, except a little more bitter. I will say this, that
I've never tasted any that I thought was so revolting I just couldn't
swallow. But it does take a little getting used to, especially the
texture, which is kind of strange. But if I can learn to not only
tolerate it, but enjoy it, so can you, I'm sure!
 
Good luck, Karen
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 29 Dec 1998, about 8:30 p.m.
 
"Hey, Chief?"
 
"Yeah?"
 
"Are you ever going to tell me about your 'mystery crush'?
 
"Eventually, Jim.  And 'crush' is *so* not the right word.  It's a lot
more than a crush."
 
"Is it somebody I know, Chief?"
 
"Yep."
 
"But you're not going to tell me who she is?"
 
"Well, it's not exactly a 'she,' Jim."
 
"Hence, the secrecy?"
 
"Yeah.  Well, that's part of it."
 
"What?  You thought I'd get uptight about that, Sandburg?  I told you
that stuff doesn't bother me."
 
"You wouldn't feel, you know, uncomfortable knowing that I could feel
that way about a guy?  You know, with me living here? "
 
"You already said you had considered that kind of relationship with a
guy.  Have you seen me looking any more uncomfortable with you than
usual?"
 
"Well, no ..."
 
"So there's your answer."
 
"You really are great, Jim.  Love ya, man."
 
"Love you, too, Chief."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:17:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Cynara <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Are you going to talk to him?
 
 Wolf, is there any possibility that your roommate is pining for _you_?
Before you say 'No way!', think about it.  Wouldn't it be terrible for
you not to say anything, and him not to say anything, and have the two
of you not saying anything blow up in your faces?
 
I'm not saying you need to make a big confession, or spring for roses
and candlelight, but you've got to break out of this stalemate.  'Cause
you really never know until you do, and you'll only _know_ if you try.
 
Hopefully, even if he is pining for someone else, it will be cleaner in
the long run.  Trust me, from experience the second-guessing just smears
it all over the place.
 
 Good luck!
 
Cynara
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:59:57 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Are you going to talk to him?
 
  On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Cynara wrote:
:
: Wolf, is there any possibility that your roommate is pining for _you_?
: Before you say 'No way!', think about it.  Wouldn't it be terrible for
: you not to say anything, and him not to say anything, and have the two
: of you not saying anything blow up in your faces?
 
   [snip]
 
: Hopefully, even if he is pining for someone else, it will be cleaner
: in the long run.  Trust me, from experience the second-guessing just
: smears it all over the place.
 
Hi,
 
I really appreciate your writing me like this.  I do need all the
support I can get.
 
But I was wondering just how staying quiet could blow up in our faces?
 
I know that eventually he'll figure out that something is up with me.
In fact, he *knows* that I'm suffering from unrequited love.  But if I
tell him and it can't be mutual, then how can we be comfortable as
roommates?
 
Both of these situations seem really awkward and I'm not sure which one
is worse.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:23:31 -0800 (PST)
23:56:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Cynara <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Flooey
 
   On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
>>  Hopefully, even if he is pining for someone else, it will be cleaner
>> in the long run.  Trust me, from experience the second-guessing just
>> smears it all over the place.
>
> Hi,
>
> I really appreciate your writing me like this.  I do need all the
> support I can get.
>
> But I was wondering just how staying quiet could blow up in our faces?
>
> I know that eventually he'll figure out that something is up with me.
> In fact, he *knows* that I'm suffering from unrequited love.  But if I
> tell him and it can't be
> mutual, then how can we be comfortable as roommates?
>
> Both of these situations seem really awkward and I'm not sure which
> one is worse.
>
> --Wolf >
 
See, I have the theory that people don't react well to holding patterns.
What if's force one into a holding pattern.  Ergo, something gives
eventually, and by that point it all has snowballed and like a snowball,
has accumulated junk in with the water.  You ever melt snowballs?
Anyway, it sounds like right now is pretty awkward, and while it's true
it could be worse, it could also get a _whole_ lot better.
 
You know better than me, your friend that is, but don't you think it's
just possible that he could live up to all the things that make you love
him, and at least be able to accept that, even if he doesn't exactly
return them?  And there's that possibility...
 
Hey, did panther ever get around to telling his?  I delete my mail so
fast it isn't even funny.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998, about noon
 
 "Hey, Catharine, what's up?"
 
"Just finishing up ... then I'm outta here!"
 
"I hear that."
 
"So, Blair, you got plans for tomorrow night?"
 
"Yeah, Jim and I'll probably go to the Department party."
 
"You're taking your *roommate* to the New Year's Eve party?!"
 
"Well, not exactly 'taking,' more like we're going there together ..."
 
"Well, midnight should prove interesting."
 
"Midnight?"
 
"Hello! New Year's Eve?  Midnight?  Everybody yells 'Happy New Year!'
Guys grab nearby women for the ritual osculation? You know, midnight."
 
"Oh, ma-an ... *midnight*"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998, 3:45 p.m.
 
"Sandy.  When are you going to tell him?"
 
"Tell who what, Megan?"
 
"Tell Jim and you *know* what."
 
"How did you guess?"
 
"It is so *obvious* to anybody looking at you.  The way you look at him?
Get serious."
 
"If it's so obvious, then why hasn't he figured it out?"
 
"Maybe he has.  Maybe he's just waiting for you."
 
"You know, somebody else said that."
 
"So when are you going to tell him?"
 
"Soon."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998, about 3:55 p.m.
 
 "When is he going to tell him what, Connor?"
 
"You heard us, Jim?"
 
"Just a couple of things.  When is he going to tell him what?"
 
"I can't really discuss that with you.  You're going to have to talk to
your partner about that."
 
"He can discuss it with *you,* but not me?"
 
"He wasn't really discussing it with me; I just confronted him with it."
 
"But how did *you* know to confront him?"
 
"Because, Jim, it was obvious.  And if you'd been paying attention,
you'd see it yourself.  But that's all I'm going to say on the subject.
The rest you will have to get from Sandy."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:17:47 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Just Checking In
 
How're you doing, Wolf?  Just thought I'd check in and see if the paper
bags are safe at the moment. :)
 
I overheard the end of a conversation between him and a mutual friend
and got the impression that he's about to approach his ... whatever they
are.
 
She practically called me an idiot for not catching on sooner -- that he
has this secret.
 
I do feel like an idiot.  How could I have *missed* it?
 
Enough.
 
Do you have any plans for New Year's?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]   59%To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Just Checking In
 
 On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: How're you doing, Wolf?  Just thought I'd check in and see if the
: paper bags are safe at the moment. :)
 
No paper bags were harmed in the creation of this e-mail.
 
;)
 
: She practically called me an idiot for not catching on sooner -- that
: he has this secret.
:
: I do feel like an idiot.  How could I have *missed* it?
 
There are perfectly reasonable explanations for this.
 
This secret love [God! First I sound like Scully, now Doris Day] could
have been going on for *years*.
 
If that's true, then there wouldn't have been any abrupt change in
behavior to clue you -- right?  It would all look just ... normal.
 
But now that you know, you can start looking.  Is there anyone around
that he looks at like they're *God,* or something?
 
: Do you have any plans for New Year's?
 
We're just going to a thing at work.  Should be fun.  Just don't know
what I'm going to do about this one co-worker.  She *so* has a crush on
me and I just don't want to deal with that.
 
How about you?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: They way he looks?
 
: On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: She practically called me an idiot for not catching on sooner -- that
: he has this secret.
:
: I do feel like an idiot.  How could I have *missed* it?
 
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: There are perfectly reasonable explanations for this.
 
[snip]
 
: But now that you know, you can start looking.  Is there anyone around
: that he looks at
: like they're *God,* or something?
 
I've been looking around but I just don't see this.
 
He's so friendly to *everybody,* has an incredibly open smile for most
people.  His eyes have this sort of warm glow when he smiles ...
 
But I haven't seen him look gaga over anyone in about 3 years and I know
for a fact it isn't her.
 
No... There isn't anyone around that he looks at like that.  He looks at
others no more intensely than he looks at me, his roommate.
 
So no.  No deity-worship that *I* can see.
 
But I'll keep looking.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:06:45 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A little logic?! [was They way he looks?]
 
: On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: But now that you know, you can start looking.  Is there anyone around
: that he looks at like they're *God,* or something?
 
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: I've been looking around but I just don't see this.
 
[snip]
 
: No... There isn't anyone around that he looks at like that.
 
: He looks at others no more intensely than he looks at me, his
: roommate.
 
I don't *believe* this, man!
 
Do you even *listen* to yourself?
 
He looks at others NO MORE INTENSELY than he looks at you?
 
Does he ... possibly look at others LESS INTENSELY than he looks at you?
 
God! men are just SO clueless!
 
</rant>
 
Other than that, how are things going?  I assume you haven't told him
yet.
 
I'm thinking of dropping a bunch of hints.  Maybe say it New Year's.
Maybe not.  Depends on how receptive he seems.
 
Wolf, who is probably JUST as clueless; must be the Y chromosome...
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:24:33 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: New Year's Plans?
 
: On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
    [snip]
 
: Do you have any plans for New Year's?
 
  On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: We're just going to a thing at work.
 
[snip]
 
: How about you?
 
Pretty much the same here.  I guess some students are having a thing and
we're going to hang out there.
 
How do you plan to avoid the girl with the crush? ;)
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:54:01 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Intense Looks
 
 On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I don't *believe* this, man!
:
: Do you even *listen* to yourself?
:
: He looks at others NO MORE INTENSELY than he looks at you?
:
: Does he ... possibly look at others LESS INTENSELY than he looks at
: you?
:
: God! men are just SO clueless!
:
: </rant>
 
Must be why we joined a predominantly female list -- eh, Wolfie?
 
Somebody pee in *your* beer this time?
 
OK ... YES.  You're right.  He does, in fact, look at most people less
intensely than he looks at me.  We've been best friends for over 3
years; he's *glad to see me*.
 
I think you've been reading way too much slashfic; it's clouding your
objectivity.
 
</counter-rant>
 
So ... drop any hints, yet?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:14:42 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Trying to be Good
 
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
 
: How do you plan to avoid the girl with the crush? ;)
 
Oh, man, I do not know!
 
It is just SO embarrassing.
 
And she hinted that she'd hunt me down at midnight.
 
I mean, it's not that she isn't nice, friendly, smart and attractive.
She's all of those things.
 
It's just that I'm trying SO hard to be good, you know?
 
I'm guessing you think this is really funny, but it isn't.
 
What do you suggest I do?
 
--Wolf, who really *isn't*
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:34:36 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Trying to be Good
 
: On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
:
: : How do you plan to avoid the girl with the crush? ;)
 
   On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: Oh, man, I do not know!
 
: It is just SO embarrassing.
 
   [snip]
 
: I'm guessing you think this is really funny, but it isn't.
:
: What do you suggest I do?
 
Kill 2 birds with one stone:  tell her you're already taken -- by him.
 
I'm only half joking.
 
I think it *is* funny -- my roommate, at one time, would not have run
from this at all. A lot of guys wouldn't have, probably.
 
But I guess it's only funny because it's not me.
 
Maybe you could pretend you have a date showing up any minute.
 
Maybe you could hide in a closet.  I guess not; too much irony in that.
 
I guess I really don't know.  This sort of problem has never come up for
me.
 
Let me know how you pull this off.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998, about 9:30 p.m.
 
 "Hey, Jim.  What about your ... situation?"
 
"Sandburg, can you *be* any more vague?!"
 
"I mean, you've been nudging me about my 'mystery person' but you
haven't said much about yours.  You going to?"
 
"Eventually."
 
"When?  Is there any reason to wait?"
 
"I guess I want to wait until I'm sure how it's going to go."
 
"So you haven't really given up; it's not a total lost cause, then."
 
"I guess you're right.  I guess I'm still hopeful."
 
"I'm glad for you, then."
 
"Thanks, Chief."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thurs, 31 Dec 1998 08:32:37 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Do I want to go first?
 
 On Tues, 29 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
 
: I'll give us both a deadline:  We tell them by noon January 9.  Sooner
: if possible.  Or we shut up forever.
:
: Deal?
 
Deal.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998, about 7:00 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim, yesterday you said that you were waiting to tell me about
your ... um ... mystery person ..  when you figured out how things were
going to go."
 
"Yes. I said that.  Your point?"
 
"Well, how will you know?  How are you going to find out?  Are you going
to ask them straight out or what?"
 
"Well, Chief, I thought I'd try observing for a while.  Get a sense of
whether they can stand me.  Figure out if there really is someone else.
Drop a few hints.  Listen to what they say.  Nothing you haven't done
yourself, who knows how many times -- and just *why* are you asking me
this?"
 
"I just ... I wanted ... I need ... Just let me know when you figure it
out, OK?  Because if you hook up with somebody ... somebody important
... if you ... then it may change the way we work together, how we are
as friends ... and I just want to ... need to ... figure out how to
adjust .. I'll need to process it.  ... That's all.  Because it'll
change things, Jim.  That's why.
 
"And I don't think I can face....  I mean first there's the torture of
the unrequited love thing .. and then .. and then you'll be off with
someone ... and I'll be happy for you really I will because ... but if
... you know .. it's an old thing .. a commonplace ... I mean they even
have it in The Lion King ... Timon and Pumba ..  [Timon was gay, you
know, and so was Scar, probably, although he was probably omnisexual,
but I digress]   Timon and Pumba even sing about it when Nala shows up
... So if it shows up there, you just *know* it's commonly known ...
that it *changes* things, Jim!"
 
"Sandburg, you're really not making much sense; I think you need to
breathe. I'm not going anywhere, Chief.  I really don't think we should
be taking our cues from an animated meercat and warthog.
 
"And besides, since when do *you* put that much stock in 'commonplaces'?
The very realities of our partnership belie several commonplaces."
 
"'Belie,' Jim?"
 
"It's a perfectly good word, Sandburg.  Shows up in my favorite
Shakespearean sonnet.  I'll let you guess which one."
 
"Shakespeare, Jim?"
 
"Disney, Sandburg?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998, about 9:00 p.m.
 
"Catharine!  You've met Jim, right?"
 
"Briefly, once.  Glad to meet you again, Jim.  Hey, you guys look great
tonight!  Blair sure cleans up nicely, doesn't he, Jim?"
 
"Catharine!"
 
"Well, you *do,* Blair.  I think this is one of the few times I've seen
you wearing fewer than 6 shirts and 3 sweaters.  And look no holes in
the knees!"
 
"Catharine's got you pegged.  And she's right, Chief -- you do clean up
nicely."
 
"You're lookin' OK yourself, Jim.  I notice you're not wearing your
white socks -- must be an occasion."
 
"Boys, now behave."
 
"You started it!"
 
"Ah, Blair, you're *so* easy.  Well, I'll be along later. ... say,
11:59?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998, 11:40 p.m.
 
"Twenty more minutes, guys!  Back in a few!"
**
 
"Jim, man, we gotta hide somewhere."
 
"Hide?  You being pursued by ghosts of girlfriends past, or something,
Chief?"
 
"That's a Christmas story, Jim.  We are now faced with the specter of
New Year's Eve. ... In here, Jim."
 
"What is this place and why are we here?"
 
"This is the phonetics lab; no one will think to look for us here."
 
"Just who are we hiding from, Sandburg, and why?"
 
"You heard Catharine -- it's almost a quarter to midnight.  And if I
know her, she'll be coming after us, probably with a girlfriend, to
indulge in the midnight ritual."
 
"Anthropologists have midnight rituals, Chief?"
 
"Get a clue, man, it's New Year's Eve! ...
 
"Aw, man! How do you *do* that?!"
 
"Do what, Chief?"
 
"That deadpan thing."
 
"But you're so easy, it's no effort at all.
 
"Look, Sandburg, all you had to say was that you didn't want Catharine
to find you so you didn't have to kiss her at midnight.  You didn't have
to go into all that academese about midnight rituals."
 
"Actually, Jim, kissing at midnight combines two sets of very important
symbols. No, really, Jim, it's very interesting!
 
"First, several cultures have things to say about the importance of both
midday and midnight.  In parts of China, midnight at the winter solstice
is considered favorable for conception. And according to some texts,
midnight of the winter solstice sets the 'yang' in motion and 'yin' at
rest.
 
"Others have taught that the midnight sun is the spiritual sun at its
zenith.
 
And my favorite one: midnight is sometimes considered a time of
befuddlement but also the point at which revelation begins.
 
"And then there is the kissing, of course."
 
"Of course."
 
"Jim..."
 
"Go ahead, Sandburg. I figure we've got about 10 more minutes of hiding
to do. I've never heard a treatise on kissing before. So go ahead, lay
one on me."
 
"Um .. Well .. OK.. there are two kinds of kissing.  And the two kinds
often overlap ambiguously.
 
"There's the sensual kissing where the mouth is used as a sensory organ.
Like when a baby uses it sort of like a third hand.  You know, how
babies are always putting things in their mouths?  They aren't always
trying to eat everything.  Sometimes they're just getting information
about whatever it is -- it's like their tongues are fingers.
 
"And sort of evolving out of that comes the erotic use of the mouth ...
but I don't have to tell you about that, do I?"
 
"No.  I would say that I get that one, Chief."
 
"Um ... yeah ... but then there is the symbolic kissing. It's a symbol
of 'a joining together and mutual adherence.' It was believed that when
one person kissed another, they were joined, spirit to spirit.
 
"Many cultures associate the breath with the spirit or soul.  So when
one's mouth touches another's mouth, the souls are released, one into
the other, the two spirits forever joined.
 
"Hence, many have written about holy kisses between mankind and God, as
well as between members of spiritual communities as a form of communion
-- the holy kiss being a sign of 'concord, submission, reverence, and
love.'
 
"So in the 'Song of Solomon,' when he writes, 'Let him kiss me with the
kisses of his mouth,' he means-- mmmmmmmph!  ... mmmmmph?  ...mmmmm..."
 
"Happy New Year, Blair."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999, 12:03 a.m.
 
"Jim?!"
 
"That's me, Chief."
 
"Jim?"
 
"Blair?"
 
"Jim?  Me?"
 
"No, *I'm* Jim; you're Blair."
 
"It was me?  You were waiting to tell me about *me*?
 
"Aw, ma-an!  How could I not *see* this?!
 
"But couldn't *you* tell?  It was *always* you.  You couldn't *tell*?
 
"What can I say, Blair, fear and denial make clueless morons of us all.
I think Shakespeare said that, but not in those words."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, about 12:15
 
"Shhhh"
 
"What? Jim?"
 
<knock-knock>
 
  ...
 
<knock-knock>
 
"Time to come out now, boys."
 
<Cree-eak>
 
"How did you--?"
 
"The phonetics lab? You thought you could hide from an anthro TA in
the*phonetics* lab?  Whole *babies* have been conceived in here.
 
"Really, Blair, you are *such* a clueless nerd.  I bet you spent the
whole time discoursing on articulation and missed midnight."
 
"No, Catharine, for your information, I did NOT discourse on
articulation and I'm quite aware that it's the new year, thank you very
much."
 
"Articulation, Chief?"
 
"The way the lips and tongue are used ... to make speech sounds."
 
"Then, no, Catharine.  Nothing that dull."
 
" I stand corrected. ...  Anyway, they're thinking of moving the party -
- what's left of it -- to Dr. Berlin's place.  And we have to lock up.
So ...  as I said, Blair ..."
 
"OK-ok! We're coming out.
 
"What?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooýÿÿÿ
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 12:30 a.m.
 
"Jim, man, I've read a LOT of Shakespeare and I don't remember*anything*
that sounded like 'fear and denial make clueless morons of us
all.'"
 
"Chief? We've just been caught in the phonetics lab and you want to
talk*Shakespeare*?  OK, let's try this:
 
...Who would fardels bear,
To Grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?  *Thus conscience does make
cowards of us all,*
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. ...
 
"Sound familiar, Chief?"
 
"You *remembered* all that?!"
 
"I had to memorize the whole damn thing in college."
 
"But, Jim, he's talking about suicide."
 
"Well, yeah, but I was thinking about a metaphorical death.  When we
were in Peru and I had that spirit journey that I told you about, I had
to be willing to die as my old self to be born as a confirmed Sentinel,
my new self...  And there's more in that speech than the desire for
suicide; there's all that stuff about fear of the unknown holding us
back.  I was beginning to feel ..."
 
"Like the unknown could not be any worse than the known!  Yeah, me too!
It was making me *crazy*!
 
"But, Jim, how did you figure it out?  I mean, I never.."
 
"Blair, I hate to say this, honey, but in the past couple of days you
have not been exactly Gary Cooper."
 
"'Honey?'"
 
"It's true, I missed a LOT of clues, but ... *Timon and Pumba?!*
Sandburg I'd never heard your heart race so fast.  And taking me to
the*phonetics lab*?  Even *I* figured out the phonetics lab.  And
the*look* in your eyes when you told me all about *kissing*?  Even if I
had
been dead *wrong,* that look *alone* woulda done me in."
 
"I always knew you were smart, man."
 
"Gotta be, to keep up with *you,* sweetie."
 
"'Sweetie?!' My *mom* calls me that and you are *definitely* NOT my
mom."
 
"But Blair, sweetie, you said we were *family.*"
 
"Cut that out!  I said you were my family, but you are NOT Naomi.  And
only *Naomi* gets away with that."
 
"I hear that."
 
"Jim ... you are SO not Naomi."
 
"Not even if I give you some tongue?"
 
"Aww, ma-an."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri 1 Jan 1999 12:45 a.m.
 
 "So, Jim, how into Shakespeare are you?"
 
"No more than anybody else who's been to college, Chief.  I'm just as
capable of misquoting him or quoting him out of context as the next guy.
Why?  You got a hankerin' to have me recite poetry to you, my Puckish
one?"
 
"Jim.  Just drive the truck."
 
"Something the matter, Chief?"
 
"I just want to be home."
 
"In a hurry, are you?"
 
"Jim."
 
"'A consummation devoutly to be wished'?"
 
"Jim!  Stop it."
 
"Sorry, Blair."
 
"Just nervous."
 
"Makes two of us."
 
"Yeah, two of us.  Partners. In this together, right?"
 
"That's how *I* see it, Chief."
 
"Me too, Jim.  With you all the way.
 
...
 
"Jim.  Watch the road, man."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, about 1:15 a.m.
 
"Now that we're safely home, you wanna talk, Chief?"
 
"Aww, man, Jim, it's late!"
 
"You going to be able to sleep now, if we don't talk?"
 
"Well, no ... not really.  So where do you want to start?"
 
"Maybe .. the beginning?  When did you know?"
 
"I didn't know until tonight.  In the phonetics lab."
 
"Not about me, about *you*."
 
"Oh. Can't really pinpoint a time.  By the time I knew, it had already
happened.  Maybe about the time we went to Peru."
 
"But Chief! That was a couple of *years* ago!"
 
"Yeah, well I knew but I didn't know-know, you know?"
 
"Oddly enough, Chief, that makes sense; I think that's pretty much what
happened here."
 
"So ...?"
 
"So .... Ah, nah, Sandburg, not the eyes!  Don't do the eyes!"
 
"The eyes, Jim?"
 
"How do you *do* that?"
 
"Do what?"
 
"How do you get your eyes to do both love AND panic all at once?"
 
"Like I have any control over that!  I feel both, the eyes do both.
That's all there is to it, Jim."
 
"Love and panic.  Kind of sums it up, I guess."
 
"Yeah, well, I figure in time the former will take care of the latter,
don't you think?"
 
"Yes, Blair, I do.  How much time do you want?"
 
"With you?  All of it."
 
"You got it."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, about 2:10 a.m.
 
"Now what?"
 
"Thought you'd want to talk more, Chief."
 
"I do.  Just ... I'm really tired.  And I want to think about stuff ...
and ...it's late and ..."
 
"Where to, Chief?"
 
"Where to?"
 
"Upstairs or down?"
 
"Aw, ma-an."
 
"There go the eyes, again."
 
"Cut it out, man."
 
"Need help up the stairs, Blair?"
 
"I'm not drunk or weak or ..."
 
"Not that kind of help."
 
"What kind of help are you talkin' about, then?"
 
"Just ... here.... Give me your hand.
 
"Like you said, we're in this together."
 
...
 
"Which side, Chief?"
 
"Left?  I like to sleep on my left side, it's more calming, somehow."
 
"Left, it is.
 
"You going to sleep in your clothes?"
 
"Don't laugh, man.  Well, OK, if it wasn't me, it'd be funny. Just ..."
 
"It's OK.  It's all OK ...
 
"Well, except for the shoes.  I insist that you take off your shoes
before coming to bed."
 
"You're so *strict,* Jim."
 
"Yeah, well, I'm old and set in my ways."
 
"Jim?"
 
"Hmmm?"
 
"Happy New Year"
 
"Love you, too, Chief."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 4:05 a.m.
 
"Blair, honey?"
 
"Mmmm?"
 
"Quit stealing the covers."
 
"Cold."
 
"You're sleeping in your sweats and wrapped in *all* the covers and
you're *cold*?!"
 
"Yes. ... 'Honey'?  You called me 'honey'?"
 
"Yes.  And I'll start calling you worse, if you don't let loose with
some of those covers."
 
"Here."
 
 ...
 
"Blair?"
 
"Hmmm?"
 
"You still cold?"
 
"Yeah.... It'll go away, eventually.  It's just ... anxiety interferes
with circulation..."
 
"Would you feel better in your ... in the other bed?  ... Less anxious?"
 
"Less anxious but less loved, Jim.
 
"It's really a no-brainer where I want to be."
 
 ...
 
"Jim?"
 
"Hmmmm?"
 
"Let go for a minute, I gotta turn over now."
 
"Anything you want, Sugarbritches."
 
"Sugarbritches?!  Man, that one makes my *teeth* hurt -- hand me
the*insulin*"
 
"<chuckle>"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 8:45 a.m.
 
"Jim."
 
"Mmmmm?"
 
"Let go, buddy."
 
"Don'wanna."
 
"Jim, I gotta pee, man."
 
"Come right back?"
 
"Jim, just give me a few minutes.  My teeth have sludge on them and I've
got bedhead and ..."
 
"You're beautiful, Chief."
 
"C'*mon,* man!  I know what I look like in the morning.  My hair looks
like I stuck a finger in the wall socket, I get creases all over my face
from the folds in the pillow cases, my former 5 o'clock shadow is
halfway to a beard ..."
 
"You're beautiful to *me.*"
 
"Aww, man.  I figured you for a bit of a mush, but don't tell me you're
going to start singing along with Joe Cocker!"
 
"If Marge Simpson can sing it to Homer, I can sing it to you."
 
"Can I call you 'Marge'?"
 
"Can I call you 'Sugarbritches'?"
 
"<gaag> Guess not."
 
"Thought you had to pee, Sandburg."
 
"Wow! All the way from 'Sugarbritches' to 'Sandburg' in the space of 2
seconds!  Talk about mood swings!"
 
"Blair, honey... darlin'... Just go do what you gotta do so you can get
back in here.  Before I change my mind about early morning snuggling."
 
"Oh."
 
 ...
 
"That was fast."
 
"Well, yeah, I was motivated."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 9:45 a.m.
 
"You still OK with the guys coming over to watch football, Chief?"
 
"Yeah .. um .. OK .. but .."
 
"But what?"
 
"But none of that 'honey' stuff in front of the guys, OK?"
 
"OK, no nicknames that can cause cavities.  Check.  Anything else?"
 
"Not ready for any 'announcements,' OK?"
 
"OK. ... But I think Connor may guess..."
 
"Megan!  Yes.  She'll know.  Oh, man!"
 
"Breathe, Sandburg.  We'll just pull her aside and tell her to keep a
lid on it.  Fair enough?"
 
"Sure.  She'll be cool."
 
"Yeah, she's pretty good about keeping secrets; pretty good about
figuring them out, too."
 
"Well, she *is* a detective."
 
"A better one than I was, this time. ... And don't you *dare* tell her I
said that."
 
"Won't breathe a word."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 10:30 a.m.
 
"Sandy, where does this go?"
 
"In the kitchen on the ... here I'll show you."
 
 ...
 
"So .. did you tell him?  ... You did!  I can tell!"
 
"Megan, can we just keep this between us?  Keep this private?"
 
"Sure thing, Sandy. ... What did he *say* when you ... oh! Never mind.
Sorry."
 
"It's OK, Megan, ... just ..."
 
"Hey, Sandburg!  Stop flirting with Connor and come join the party!"
 
"Flirting? Me?  Hey! You're supposed to *eat* the popcorn, not throw
it!"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, about 2:00 p.m.
 
"So, Sandy, who's winning?"
 
"Don't know, doesn't matter."
 
"You're spending a whole day watching games and it doesn't matter who
wins?"
 
"Well, it might matter to somebody here ... for a couple of days ...
but it's really about male bonding."
 
"Then why did you invite *me*?"
 
"Aren't you one of the guys, Megan?"
 
"Smartass."
 
 ...
 
"And really it goes way beyond the usual bonding, skirting the edges of
homoeroticism."
 
"Sandburg.  Do. Not. Go. There."
 
"But, Simon, it's true!
 
"Big beefy guys patting each other's butts?  Guys huddling together with
their arms around each other?  Grabbing balls from between the legs of
guys who are bent over with their asses in their team mates' faces?
It's so *obvious*!"
 
"That may be, Blair, but I don't think most people really want to think
about it."
 
"Well, *I* don't mind thinking about it, Sandy.  I think you have a good
point."
 
"Thanks, Megan.  Actually, women tend to be more open-minded than men
about this stuff."
 
"Well, I don't know, Chief.  What if the sport were played by women?
Megan? ...  Would you mind hearing about the subtext, then? ...  Megan?"
 
"No.  I don't seem to mind, Jim."
 
"With you there, Connor."
 
"Simon!"
 
"This is just *so* typical!"
 
"Chief?"
 
"Sorry, Simon.  It's just that when it's women, it's somehow OK.  More
than OK, judging by the drool on everybody's chins here.  But if it's
men, it's 'DO NOT GO THERE.' No wonder men are such repressed assholes
sometimes!"
 
"Easy, Chief."
 
"Sorry guys."
 
 ...
 
"Anybody want another beer while I'm up?"
 
"Sure, Sandburg, how about another round."
 
 ...
 
"What's up with Sandburg, Jim?"
 
"He's had a rather disconcerting couple of days, Simon.  He'll be OK."
 
"If you say so."
 
 ...
 
"Hey, Chief, you want help in there?"
 
"I'd appreciate it."
 
 ...
 
"So, Chief...."
 
"Why are you whispering, Jim?"
 
"Love you, Sugarbritches."
 
"Jim!"
 
"Football giving you ideas?"
 
"Jim!"
 
"Or is there something in your head screaming 'DO NOT GO THERE'?"
 
"OK, so I'm busted. Very perceptive."
 
"Not really. Lotta people get pissed when they see their own 'faults'
surface in others.  Nothing new."
 
"Jim, how can you stand it?"
 
"What, Blair?"
 
"My panic-fits.  Here you've put yourself out there and I'm ..."
 
"You're you.  You've always been like this.  And you usually come back
down to earth.  And it's always worth waiting for the return trip."
 
"Aww, ma-an.  How do I deserve you?"
 
"You don't."
 
"Hey, guys!  Quit your bonding and get some beer in here!"
 
"Coming, guys!  Jim, man, cut it out!"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 6:15 p.m.
 
"Bye, guys!"
 
"Thanks, Simon."
 
 ...
 
"G'night, Sandy.  You two going to be OK? .. Never mind ... Good start
to the new year, wouldn't you say?"
 
"You could say that, Connor."
 
"Thanks for everything, Megan.  Happy New Year."
 
"Yeah, from me too, Connor.  Thanks."
 
 ...
 
"Hey, Jim?
 
"Mmm?"
 
"The Rally is next Friday and we haven't made any firm plans, yet and
I'd really like to know, because --"
 
"Let's go."
 
"You sure you can get the days .. ?"
 
"I wanted to surprise you, but I guess now is the time.  I asked
Simon for a week.  Told him there was something I needed to do, told him
it was family business."
 
 "You *lied* to *Simon*?"
 
"Not exactly a lie, Chief.  You're family.  I figured we should take
some time away from stresses around here.  Figure some stuff out.  Have
some fun together.
 
"And yeah, to answer a question you once asked -- I *do* remember fun,
Blair. And for the past 3 years, most of it has been associated
with*you.*"
 
"Jim!"
 
"That color looks good on you.  Sort of a magenta."
 
"Aw, man, cut it out."
 
"So, anyway ...  I figure we can leave Tuesday morning. If we drive
about 400 miles a day or so, we can get there by Thursday night.
 
"And you remember my sources?  I found us a place to stay with about 10
other fans."
 
"Man, Jim that's great!  I guess I'll have to e-mail my on-line friend
and let her know.  I had arranged for a possible place with her but I
tell her that you made other arrangements."
 
"You do that.  And no flirting."
 
"Ellison!  I *told* you .... oh ... Man, you are so *evil*!  You really
have to stop that."
 
"But you're so much fun to tease."
 
"Watch it Jim.  Payback can be a bitch."
 
"Threats, Chief?"
 
"Just a warning."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 7:15 p.m.
 
"Blair?"
 
"Hmm?"
 
"Can I use your laptop?  I don't want to go all the way to the station
to e-mail my contact about the Rally."
 
"Sure, Jim, anytime.  I need to check my e-mail later tonight, though."
 
"Show me how your e-mail program works, Chief?"
 
"Sure.  No problem.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:00:16 -0800 (PST)
 
From: [email protected]
To: allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: The Rally
 
Allison,
 
Just wanted to drop a line to let you know that BOTH of us will
definitely be coming down for the Rally.
 
We'll be arriving Thursday night after a 3-day drive.
 
Is there anything you would like us to bring?
 
I'm looking forward to finally meeting you in person and introducing you
to my friend.
 
Thanks again,
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:15:03 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Just Checking In
 
Wolf,
 
Haven't heard from you in a couple of days.
 
Did you have that talk?
 
Are you still going to the Rally?
 
Just checking in on you.  Hope you're doing OK.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999, 10:30 p.m.
 
"Jim?  Why is this stuff so easy for you?"
 
"What stuff?"
 
"This falling in love with your roommate stuff.  Your guy roommate.
 
"It's like you just ...  do it... You are so playful about it. You don't
seem worried or scared or anything.  It's like you're used to this."
 
"Well, I *am* used to it."
 
"What!?  You said you never had a relationship with a guy before. How
could you be 'used to it'?"
 
"I'm used to being in love with my roommate because I've been in love
with him seems like *forever.* Loving you is *easy.*"
 
"None of this makes you nervous?"
 
"Oh, yeah. Lots of it.  Talking about how I feel is up at the top of the
list.
 
"I worry that you'll change your mind, be scared off.  I'm worried
you'll get bored with me, that I'm not smart enough.
 
"I'm worried that you'll feel rushed into things, that you'll feel
pressured into doing things you're not ready for.  I'm worried that as I
get older, you'll lose interest in ... well, assuming you even were in
the first place ...."
 
"But you seem so calm."
 
"Yeah, it's strange.  I do have all those worries, but I still feel ..
calm.  It's like I have .. 'faith' .. for once that it'll all be OK."
 
"Wow.  That's great, man."
 
"Yeah, isn't it?"
 
"Hey, Jim?"
 
"Hmm?"
 
"I'm not going to change my mind.  I may be a neurotic mess, but I
refuse to be scared off.  I can't imagine thinking of you as boring.
You are hell of smart.
 
"And I've loved you so long I don't even know when it started."
 
 ...
 
"Jim?  ... What's the matter, man? .. oh .. I've never seen you ..
Here. Here's a Kleenex. ... Would a hug be OK?"
 
"More than OK, Chief."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:54:59 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: allison <[email protected]>
Cc: Subject: The Rally
 
Allison,
 
I'm sorry to be telling this so late.
 
My roommate, unbeknownst to me, had already made plans to stay at a
fan's house next weekend.  He wanted to surprise me and it seemed so
important to him that he offer the trip as a gift, so I've decided to go
along with his plans on this.
 
I really hope this won't be an inconvenience for you.  It'll make your
place a little less crowded.  OR you'll have room for 2 more fans.
 
:)
 
I'd like to meet you at the rally.  I hear they're giving out name tags.
I'll put my on-line nick on mine and look for yours.  Maybe we can all
go out for beer, or something.
 
Again, thank you SO much for offering your house.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:30:39 -0800 (PST)
 
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Just Checking In
 
On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Panther wrote:
 
: Haven't heard from you in a couple of days.
:
: Did you have that talk?
 
Yes.
 
: Are you still going to the Rally?
 
Yes.
 
: Just checking in on you.  Hope you're doing OK.
 
Thanks.
 
I'm doing OK, just *stunned.*
 
I feel like the dog that chased cars and then was surprised as hell when
he actually caught one.
 
How about you?
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999, 12:30 a.m.
 
"You coming up, Chief?"
 
"Um ..."
 
"No pressure.  Your choice.  I'll be here."
 
"Be there in a minute."
 
 ...
 
"An extra blanket, Chief?"
 
"Well, I just ... thought .. that .. if we had this, then I wouldn't
have to wear ... these."
 
"Oh ... Just a minute ....  So ... if we add this second one, does that
mean the boxers come off, too?"
 
"Aww, man, Jim...
 
".. You're doing it again, aren't you?  I warned you about that.
Payback is tomorrow.  When you least expect it."
 
"I'm shaking in my boots."
 
"You aren't wearing any boots."
 
"Well, then, I'm shaking in my boxers."
 
"Now, that's a picture I'll treasure always."
 
 ...
 
"Jim?  .. Buddy? .."
 
"Mmm?"
 
"My hair is caught in your armpit and I can't move."
 
 ...
 
"Blair? .. Honey?  What are you doing?"
 
"Too many covers, Jim."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:50:14 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: Just Checking In
 
On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Wolf wrote:
 
: I'm doing OK, just *stunned.*
:
: I feel like the dog that chased cars and then was surprised as hell
: when he actually caught one.
:
: How about you?
 
Me?
 
I'm the happiest I've been in years!
 
I have you to thank for helping me get a clue.
 
He's such a kick!
 
Sorry to hear that your experience has not been so positive. Is there a
problem?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:13:24 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: No Problem, Really
 
On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Panther wrote:
 
: Sorry to hear that your experience has not been so positive.  Is there
: a problem?
 
No.  No problem, really.
 
I gave the wrong impression.
 
I'm stunned -- yes.  But it's more like I'm in shock.  I didn't really
know what to expect.  I guess I didn't think he'd want me.  But he does.
 
And now I'm afraid to disappoint him.
 
And I'm afraid of all the other stuff, which I told myself I wouldn't
worry about.
 
You were right, though.  He is trying to help me through this.  And I'm
really not much help to him and it must be pretty much of a shock for
him, too.
 
I'm really in over my head here.
 
Gotta go.  I think we're going to run out of paper bags before this week
is up.
 
By the way, Happy New Year.
 
What a way to start *this* one out!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:47:36 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Request for Questions
 
Happy New Year, Listsibs!!
 
The list has been pretty quiet lately, so I thought I'd take this
opportunity during the lull, to let you know some of my plans and to
make a request.
 
My roommate and I will definitely be going to the Rally in LA next week
and I thought that since so many people are unable to go and we've been
so lucky and since you guys have been so supportive of me in the
discussions these past few weeks -- I could bring back a detailed report
of events to share with you all.
 
I'll be limited, of course, to those things I actually participate in.
 
But I thought I'd give you a chance to get a fuller report by suggesting
that you post questions to the list.
 
That is, what aspects of the Rally do you want me to report on?
 
What questions about the events of the weekend do you want me to answer?
 
I'm hoping that this is considered sufficiently on-topic for the list
and that our dear listmom approves.
 
Thanks,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999, 5:30 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim!  I have a great idea!"
 
"Yeah?  Let's hear it."
 
"Well, since we've sort of begun a new phase in our relationship, I
thought we could acknowledge it in some way, sort of mark it."
 
"Sandburg, it's only been two *days*.  Less than that, even.  We haven't
even ... What kind of acknowledgment are we talking about here?"
 
"Well, I thought it should be something symbolic and fun. So I got this
great idea when I went to the hardware store on the way home."
 
"The hardware store?  You got an idea about our love life at
the*hardware store*?"
 
"Yeah, it's perfect.  We paint your truck."
 
"Paint my truck?!"
 
"Sure, Jim.  A lot of people sort of announce a change in their inner
selves by changing the appearance of their outer selves.  Since we spend
a lot of time in the truck, we are, in effect, the truck's inner self.
And since an aspect of our lives is changing, that means the truck's
inner self is changing.  SO we need to change the outer appearance of
the truck."
 
"Sandburg..."
 
"But wait, Jim!  Look what I have here.  I got these color samples and
some brushes from the hardware store.  I was thinking purple would be a
great color -- sort of symbolic and all.  But I didn't want to
unilaterally choose the shade of purple so I brought these color
strips."
 
"Sandburg!  I am not painting my truck purple.  I have to use it for
work.  Cops do *not* have lavender trucks."
 
"Well, Jim, I thought about that.  Maybe we could just do a temporary
paint job for our trip to LA and then we could get a new, real one when
we get back -- any boring cop color you want.
 
"I figure we could paint the whole thing one of these purples or
lavenders.  We could do it kinda like those VW buses from the '60s, you
know, with a few, cool symbolic images -- peace symbols, whatever...
 
"And then, on one side we could put a big heart with 'Joe and Jake
Forever' in it, in honor of the return of The Watchman.
 
"And then, on the other side we could do another heart with 'J + B' --
sort of discreetly done.  I thought it would be kinda of romantic.  What
do you think?"
 
"Sandburg, are you outta your goddamn mind!  That's the most... That's
...  I can't even *begin* ..."
 
"Gotcha."
 
"Oh, fuck."
 
"Warned ya, man.  Paybacks are hell."
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999, 7:30 p.m.
 
"Hey, Jim?  What kind of place will we be staying at when we go to LA?"
 
"I thought I mentioned that it was a fellow fan's house.  She's letting
ten to twelve people stay there."
 
"That's a lot of people.  Where's everybody going to sleep?"
 
"Well, it sounds like everybody's supposed to bring sleeping bags.  But
from her description of what she's planned, I doubt that we'll get much
sleep."
 
"Just *what* is she planning?"
 
"She says there will be lots of video-watching, talking, eating popcorn,
giggling, stuff like that."
 
"Well ... um ... what type of .. um .. sleeping arrangements are we
talking?"
 
"Didn't I just say 'sleeping bags,' Sandburg?"
 
"Yeah, but .. um .. zipped together or what?
 
"Jim?"
 
"Sorry.  I just had this bizarre image of 12 sleeping bags all zipped
together, with all these giggling Watchman fans zipped up like a
sandwich."
 
"Good one, Jim.  ... But you *know* what I'm asking."
 
"I do know. And you're starting to hit on the stuff we *haven't* talked
about yet.
 
"... It all seems so backwards.  ... We haven't even ... 'consummated'
... this ... and we're wondering about whether a bunch of relative
strangers can witness us sharing a sleeping bag.
 
"It's just so early in ... this .. 'new phase of our relationship,' as
you called it.  I really don't feel like ... sharing us, yet.  Does that
make sense, Chief?"
 
"Absolutely, Jim.  Separate bags, it is.  ... But what about ..."
 
"What about what?"
 
"PDA's"
 
"PDA's?"
 
"'Public Displays of Affection,' Jim."
 
"I don't know, Sandburg.  I'm a pretty private guy about stuff like
that.  I mean, you didn't want me using the gooey nicknames in front of
the guys, right?  Same thing."
 
"You want me to go on this trip for a week so that we can 'work out some
things' about this new facet of our relationship, and you don't want us
to be affectionate?!  At all?!"
 
"We can be affectionate -- in *private.*"
 
"But there won't *be* any privacy in a living room full of giggling
fans.  We won't even have privacy when we *sleep*.  And I'm *not*
sneaking into the bathroom with you to make out -- that's just too
demeaning."
 
"Well, there is one option that the host brought up.  She offered us the
use of a spare bedroom, since most of the guests will be women. It just
seemed rather unfair for the two of us to have a whole room to ourselves
when there were so many people sharing the floor."
 
"Jim, I say we take it."
 
"I thought you were made of nobler stuff, Chief?"
 
"Well, I'm not.  If we were an old married couple and used to all of
this, it wouldn't matter.  But ... like you said, this is too new.
 
"It's like a honeymoon, for god's sake, and if I don't have to spend it
with a dozen pairs of eyes *looking* at us, that's all the better."
 
"OK, Chief.  The idea suits me just fine.  I'll appreciate the privacy,
myself.  I'll ask her, make sure it's still an option.  But you do
realize, don't you, that being in our own room won't absolutely solve
this problem of feeling 'watched.'"
 
"What d'you mean?"
 
"Think about it.  Two guys decide they need to sleep in private, so they
opt to share the one spare bed in the only guest bedroom. Outside the
closed door are 10 giggling fans of the slashiest show on
television.*You* do the math."
 
"Oh, man!"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999, 9:30 p.m.
 
"Here, Chief, I got you a little present ... but you gotta let me use
it first."
 
"That's a pretty weird way to give a guy a present, isn't it, Jim?"
 
"It'll make sense once you open it."
 
"A hairbrush.  Nice carving on the wood handle.   This is a really nice,
Jim. ... But you want to use it first?  That is so weird, not to
mention not exactly hygienic .. oh."
 
"*Like* that, Blair?"
 
"Oh, y-e-a-h.  I haven't had my hair brushed in *ages*.  I love it!
What made you think of this?"
 
"Read it somewhere.  And I *love* touching your hair. It's just ... so
 ..."
 
"Jim?"
 
"Hmm?"
 
"Where'd ya go, buddy?"
 
"You probably have no idea what a sensuous experience this is for me --
immersing my hands in this lush mass of hair .. it's so ...."
 
"Um.. Jim?  Where are you going with this?
 
"... Jim?  ... Mmmmimmm?! ..mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - mmm! mmm--air!  Jim!
Air!"
 
"Where are *we* going with this, Chief?"
 
"This-this?  or the big THIS?"
 
"Take your pick, Blair."
 
"Well .. I'm pretty nervous .. I mean, I've never .. with a guy .. and
.. I know that .. *eventually* .. I want to .. with you ..."
 
"It's OK, Chief.  Just breathe."
 
"I'll be back in a minute, Jim."
 
"Where're you going?"
 
 ...
 
"Had to breathe into a paper bag."
 
"A paper bag, Chief?"
 
"Yeah, it's a common way to deal with panic attacks, hyperventilation."
 
"Yeah, I knew about that.  But I didn't know ... How often do you do
that?"
 
"Well, I hadn't for a long time, but lately ... I knew I was going to
tell you how I felt and ... I just froze up every time I thought about
the whole 'guy' thing and so I've been keeping a stash of paper bags in
my room.  Oh, man, you must think I'm so lame!
 
"This is so embarrassing. I mean, people useta razz me about how
'active' I was and sort of assumed that I had all this *experience* but
it really wasn't true and anyway, it's just not the same.  Well, maybe
technically it is, but it just doesn't seem like it's the same..
 
"Aw, Jim, I love ya, man.  Please don't change your mind just because
I'm-mmmm! Mmmmmmmmmmm."
 
"It's OK, Blair.  It's all OK.
 
"It was OK Thursday night when you wore 3 layers of clothes to bed.  It
was OK last night when you insisted on bringing up an extra blanket
and then kicking off all the covers.  It'll be OK tonight when you do
whatever weird thing you come up with to cope with all that anxiety.
 
"It's all OK."
 
"But for how long, Jim?"
 
"I've waited 3 years, not knowing how you felt.
Knowing how you feel, I can wait as long as it takes."
 
"Ohh, ma-an.  Love you *so* much!"
 
"Yeah, me too, buddy."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:04:11 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: See you at the Rally
 
Wolf,
 
I *am* glad you and your roommate are both coming and devastated that
you won't be with us....<g>  I think it is so cool that your roomie made
those arrangements to surprise you!  I like him already. And you bet
we'll all get together at the rally....you buying?
 
Can't wait to put names to faces and *see* all the great friends we have
all been chatting with for these several weeks.
 
BTW:  Happy New Year, Wolf....may 1999 be your best yet!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:18:48 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Confirmation
 
Panther,
 
Great news!  Glad you are *both* coming and after a three day drive?
I'll make sure the shower is free....<g>  You'll both be exhausted but
hopefully up for some conversation and maybe a few fave episodes of
Watchman?
 
I Don't drink coffee or tea, so you might want to bring your
favorites....We'll all be leaving bright and early Friday
morning...Rally, here we come!
 
Happy New Year, Panther and  see you Thursday night!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999, 8:00 a.m.
 
"Dammit, Sandburg, you're worse than a goddam cat!"
 
"A cat, Jim?"
 
"Yeah.  When Carolyn and I were married we had this *huge* cat called,
cleverly enough, 'Fat Cat.' He would come into the bedroom in the middle
of the night, whenever he felt like he wasn't getting enough attention,
and would fucking wake me up by creeping slowly up from the foot of the
bed as though he were stalking me.  And then he would *stand on my
chest* and just stare at my face.  If the creeping and stalking didn't
wake me, the staring did.
 
"It was the creepiest sensation to feel those eyes on me, just staring.
I'd wake up right out of a dead sleep and see those giant yellow,
unblinking eyes not two inches from mine.  The cat's lucky I never
killed him."
 
"I wasn't stalking you, Jim, I was just looking at your face ... and
thinking.  Didn't mean to wake you."
 
"Well, now that you've got my attention, what were you thinking?"
 
"I was wondering what this is like for you, the effects on your senses,
I mean."
 
"Where's the clock?"
 
"Clock?"
 
"It took you from midnight January one to ... eight a. m. January third
for you to ask.  I'm impressed by your restraint, Sandburg."
 
"Yeah, well, I've been in shock.
 
"But really, I was wondering how it is for you to sleep with someone
else and wake up to morning breath and all the extra smells and I know
that having someone else in the bed raises the ambient temperature. And
then there's the texture of my beard.  And even though I've got my T-
shirt and boxers on, you can probably feel some of my hairiness. And
that's just smell and touch. You probably are pretty sensitive to
snoring and no matter what you and Joe Cocker claim, I'm not that great
to look at in the morning.  It must be an incredible assault on your
senses, man."
 
"Blair, honey, it's not like any of that information hasn't been
available to me before."
 
"But, Jim, the proximity *must* make a difference."
 
"You're right, Blair, it does."
 
"Well, how can you stand it?  Are you able to dial it down as soon as
you wake up, or what?"
 
"How can I stand it?
 
"You're right.  It's definitely quite an ordeal.  I have to suffer
feeling that lush, soft, springy hair brushing over my arm; smelling
your shampoo, which seems to remind me of cookies, for some reason;
hearing your little, breathy sounds as you sleep; seeing those huge,
beautiful, dark blue eyes, first thing in the morning, looking at me as
though I were ... I don't know what."
 
"Aw, man."
 
"Yeah, it's a real pain, but I wouldn't miss that blush for the world."
 
 ...
 
"So, Chief, which chapter is that going in?"
 
"Jim!  I wouldn't! I couldn't do that to you .. To us ...
 
"Ohh, fuck.  You asshole. Haven't you learned your lesson, yet?!"
 
"Why should I, when your lesson plans are so creatively conceived and
implemented?"
 
"Jim.."
 
"I bet you can't top the purple truck."
 
"Is that a dare?  Do you *want* me to top the purple truck?"
 
"Well, actually, Blair ... Love of my Life ... when I imagine you
topping, it usually isn't my truck that comes to mind.
 
"Close your mouth, Chief, you look like a beached fish."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999, 11:30 a.m.
 
"Um, Chief?  Did you ever find out how to join one of those lists we
were talking about a while back?"
 
"Uh .. yeah, Jim.  I actually joined a couple -- one for The X-Files and
one for The Watchman."
 
"Any news about the Rally or anything on the Watchman list?"
 
"No, it's actually been pretty quiet.  I was getting more information
from my e-pal than from the list, for a while there, so I stopped
checking in.  Why?"
 
"Just wondering."
 
 ...
 
"Out of curiosity, Chief, is that a regular list or a slash list?"
 
"Well, technically it's an 'adult' list.  That means people can discuss
just about anything; it doesn't have to be slash.  But most of what I've
seen has been pretty slashy."
 
"Have you saved any of the posts, by any chance?"
 
"Nah.  I have pretty limited storage, so anything I download I delete
just before I log off."
 
"So ... I can't ... maybe read some of the old stuff ... get a feel for
the people there?"
 
"No. It's all gone, Jim.  Sorry."
 
"Well, maybe after we come back from the Rally, could you let me read
some of the stuff before you log off?  Or save it to a floppy?"
 
"Sure, Jim!  There's really nice people on that list.  Smart, too."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: A Thankyou
 
I know I was driving you all crazy with my on-line anxiety attacks about
should I/shouldn't I 'confess' to my roommate.  A few of you wrote to me
either on-list or in private e-mail telling me to 'just do it, already.'
My own private Nike commercials.
 
Since many of you have been so supportive and open, I wanted to let you
know that I have, in fact, 'had that talk' with my roomie.  And those of
you who suggested that he might be of like mind win whatever side bets
you guys were making.
 
Blew me away!
 
I'm still in shock.
 
I don't feel it would be right to go into personal details.  But I did
want to share my happiness with you guys, since I really believe that it
was your encouragement that gave me that push.  That and he kissed me.
;)
 
Before I veer into the land of TMI, I'll close.
 
Thanks to you all!
 
What a fantastic new year!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:54:16 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Thankyou
 
Yippee!  Good going Wolf....and Happy New Year!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:07:12 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Thankyou
 
On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Wolf wrote:
 
: [snip]
:
: Since many of you have been so supportive and open, I wanted to let
: you know that I have, in fact, 'had that talk' with my roomie.  And
: those of you who suggested that he might be of like mind win whatever
: side bets you guys were making.
 
: [snip]
 
: I don't feel it would be right to go into personal details.  But I did
: want to share my happiness with you guys, since I really believe that
: it was your encouragement that gave me that push.  That and he kissed
: me. ;)
 
Well, since Wolf is so courageously opening up to make his announcement,
I'd like to congratulate him.  Way to go, Sport.
 
Many of you ladies on the list are unaware that Wolf and I have been
corresponding off-list, and I'd like to say publicly that he has been
very encouraging to me even when he himself needed a lot of support.  I
wanted to publicly thank him as well as everyone else here who has
written to give advice to us.
 
And just so you know, I too have taken the advice of so many of you and
had the talk, also.  Glad I did.  It put my mind at ease.
 
I'll be seeing some of you at the Rally and then I can introduce you to
him.  He's a great guy.  I know you'll love him almost as much as I do.
 
Thanks,
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:35:37 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Request for Questions
 
On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Wolf wrote:
 
[snip]
:
: But I thought I'd give you a chance to get a fuller report by
: suggesting that you post questions to the list.
:
: That is, what aspects of the Rally do you want me to report on?
:
: What questions about the events of the weekend do you want me to
: answer?
 
I don't know whether this would constitute a spoiler, but if you get a
chance to see the sneak preview of the season premier, could you let us
know if, in your opinion, the new season looks like it will be more or
less slashy than last season?
 
Definitely tell us if Robert Bergman and Gary Magnum actually appear and
what they say about the direction of the new season.  Or does that have
to go on the spoiler list?
 
Anybody else?
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:52:48 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Need Help
 
Wolf,
 
I was right that my friend is a little nervous about being in an m/m
relationship, even though he obviously cares about me.
 
I'm nervous also, but for some reason, it's not affecting me as
adversely.  Maybe because I knew deep-down for a long time that this was
part of who I was.  Maybe just because I'm older.  Maybe because the
look in his eyes gives me hope.
 
It's sometimes hard for us to talk about stuff directly or all at once
and I really want to help him relax.
 
Maybe you can give me some insight on how I can do that.
 
Thanks,
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 18:38:54 +0000
From: Casey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: WatchAD: Request for Questions
 
I have a question. Find out if anymore information has been given out
about a possible season 5. I would also like some specific advertising
plans that the Ungrateful Pigheaded Ninny's plan on. Last season was
bereft of decent advertisement, which showed just how they felt about
TW. They shoved that damn "Weeks Past" down our throats and even now
that cartoon character is floating everywhere on their station. What
about the guys?
 
Give em hell,
Casey
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 18:35:36 -0500
From: T <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Thankyou
 
Way to go Panther & Wolf ! Wish I was meeting you there, have fun for
all of us "poor stay at homes" !!! =;-)
 
T
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:29:56 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WatchAD: A Thankyou
 
Panther:
 
You are a true gentleman....Good luck and best of the New Year for you
both...See you soon!
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:02:45 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: Panther
Subject: This may be too personal...
 
Hearing the good news from Wolf on-list, and not recalling seeing much
from you, I thought I'd write and ask.  Off-list, in case this is too
personal.
 
Did you talk to him?  How did it go?
 
Best of luck!
 
Cynara
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:03:32 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Need Help
 
On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Panther wrote:
 
: I was right that my friend is a little nervous about being in an m/m
: relationship, even though he obviously cares about me.
 
[snip]
 
: It's sometimes hard for us to talk about stuff directly or all at once
: and I really want to help him relax.
:
: Maybe you can give me some insight on how I can do that.
 
Panther,
 
Man, I have been pretty much a basket case so I don't know how well I
can help you.  But since you've been so sympathetic to me, I'll really
give it a try.
 
You need to find out *why* he's so nervous.  I don't know him, you do.
 
I'll tell you what makes *me* nervous and maybe you can ask him if those
are the things that are doing it to him.  You could raise them as
hypotheticals, or whatever.
 
So for me, it's obviously the sex thing.  I mean I had no problem saying
the words, being affectionate, thinking about 'forever.' But it's the
stuff I talked to you about before.
 
Why?
 
Good question.
 
There's the idea that it's gross that you very clearly tried to disabuse
me of.  I *know* that it's not *objectively* gross, so it's got to be
fear of the unknown or the unfamiliar.
 
But I think it's got to be something on top of that.
 
Like probably performance anxiety -- thinking I won't be any good at it.
That he'll be disappointed in me, in us.
 
And then there's the thing about him being so *big*.  And that's not
even that objective because he's like only about 5 inches taller. Maybe
he outweighs me by about 50 pounds.
 
I shouldn't really be afraid that he'll crush me.  I mean how
many*women* does that happen to, right?  Lots of women who are, like,
5'5"
have sex with guys that are 5'10"  and don't end up in the ER with their
bones crushed, right?
 
And then there's the thing about my gender identity.  I always thought I
was pretty open-minded -- at least I was brought up to be.  But I don't
care how open-minded a person is, it's hard to let go of who
you*thought* you were for almost 30 years.  And who I've been is a guy
who
has been only with women.
 
And then there's the whole thing about does that make me 'less
masculine'?  Objectively, I don't think so.  But the messages out there,
the enculturation, tell me that masculine guys don't 'go there.'
 
This whole thing really pisses me off.  I'm supposed to be an
intellectual, a scientist, open-minded, and yet all these prejudices
have just leaped up into my consciousness.  I don't want them to be
there but they are.
 
I don't know if any of these things are the things worrying your friend,
but a lot of guys apparently do worry about this stuff, according to
what I've been reading -- and I seem to be one of those guys.
 
I hope that at least some of this is helpful for you.  Let me know how
it goes.
 
Good luck,
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999, 8:45 p.m.
 
"So, Chief...?"
 
"Jim?"
 
"Wanna make some popcorn, cuddle up and watch The X-Files?"
 
"That wasn't what you were going to ask me, was it?"
 
"No. No, it wasn't.  But it was the easier of the two questions."
 
"And the other one was ..?"
 
"Are you feeling less .. nervous .. about .. us?"
 
"I think so.  My circulation isn't shutting down.  I need fewer clothes
at night.  My feet aren't frozen."
 
"Does that mean you no longer have cold feet?"
 
"Ha ha ha, Jim.  No cold feet ... about snuggling, anyway.  I feel
comfortable snuggling -- more than comfortable, actually. *Really* like
snuggling."
 
"Which brings us back to my other question."
 
"Sure.  Popcorn. X-Files. You, me, the couch.  Lots of snuggling.  It's
a plan."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999, 10:02 p.m.
 
"What was *that*!  That really sucked!"
 
"Well, they can't all be brilliant, Chief."
 
"What a waste of Bruce Campbell!  And where were Mulder and Scully?
They were in this thing for about 15 minutes each.  I started to think
that the real X-File was that everybody was taken over by sleep-walking
zombies."
 
"You should write TV reviews for the Rainier shopper, Chief.  You could
call your column "The Full Scoop" and sign it with your initials."
 
"Man, no one's razzed me about my initials since junior high!"
 
"I always wondered *what* your mom was thinking when she chose your
name.  But eventually, I just figured that in your typically adaptive
fashion, you just decided to take up obfuscation as a hobby, figuring it
must have been your destiny or something."
 
"You're on thin ice, man."
 
"Oh yeah?  Well I've got a pillow here with your name on it."
 
"You gotta catch me first!"
 
  ...
 
"This is so unfair, Jim."
 
"You're the one who decided to toss a whole pot full of water over my
head; you're the one that gets to mop it up."
 
"But you're the one that pushed me into the shower with my clothes on."
 
"Well, you wouldn't let me take them off."
 
"That is so not the point, Jim."
 
"Isn't it?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999, 10:40 p.m.
 
"I'll help you mop the water, Chief, if you'll do an experiment with
me."
 
"An experiment?"
 
"Sure.  You've run experiments on me for a couple of years.  Now I want
to do one."
 
  ...
 
"OK, what is it?"
 
"We have to do this in your room."
 
 ...
 
"OK, Chief, I'll go first.
 
...  What do you see?"
 
"You're standing butt-naked in my room.  It's clear that the air in here
is cold.  ... And now you have a shit-eating grin on your face.
Now what?"
 
"Your turn."
 
"My turn. ... OK ...What do *you* see?"
 
"You -- a man who had to wear 3 layers of clothes to feel OK sleeping in
my bed just 4 nights ago -- are now standing, as you put it, butt-naked
right in front of me.
 
"I see a man who is showing evidence of exposure to cold air.  And his
face is starting to turn a slight pink but not the magenta of just two
days ago.
 
"I see a man that I love teetering on the edge of a panic attack, facing
one of his fears, refusing to back down."
 
"I see a man whose speech centers just went off-line.
 
"Want a paper bag?"
 
"No.  ..  That's OK..."
 
"You want to take a moment?  ... Here.  I got out some sweats for us.
You're looking cold.  ... You going to be all right?"
 
"Yeah!  I'm freezing but I'm OK....
 
" ...  Jim, man, how did you think of that?"
 
"Just popped into my head.  Don't know where it came from. Just went
with my gut, this time."
 
"Good instincts."
 
"Thanks. ... Time to pack it in, Chief. ... You with me?"
 
"Not even a question, Jim.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999, 6:00 a.m.
 
"Mornin,' Sugarbritches."
 
"Coffee?  You brought me coffee in bed?"
 
"I brought *us* coffee in bed, Honeybutt."
 
"Ah, gaaagh! Jim, what's with the *names*?!  I know that you have a
predilection to using nicknames, but Jim, man, I can feel my teeth
decaying as we speak!"
 
"<chuckle>"
 
"So that's the way it is, is it?  Well, two can play at that game."
 
"You may be the master of obfuscation, but you'd lose at this one,
Baby."
 
"You really want to play Dueling Goo, Jim?"
 
"If you think you're up to it, Blair, honey."
 
"I get 6 hours to get myself ready.  We start at noon."
 
"How do we decide the winner?"
 
"The loser makes the declaration."
 
"How's *that* gonna work?"
 
"The loser will just know that I've bested him and concede like the
gentleman that he is."
 
"You're *on,* Babe."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:22:12 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To:  allison <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: A Request   Allison,
 
I have a favor to ask of you, again.  I really don't want to impose any
more than I already have, but something's come up.
 
As I mentioned on-list, I've had that talk with my friend.  What I
didn't say was that it's mutual.
 
But since neither of us has been in a relationship like this with a man,
we are moving slowly.  He is especially feeling shy and we both feel the
need to have *some* privacy.
 
So the favor:
 
A few weeks ago you offered us the use of a guest bedroom, since we'd be
the only guys.  I had suggested that it might not be fair.
 
But Blair [that's his name] wants me to ask for the option, so that at
least while we're sleeping, he won't feel stared at.  Being a rather
private kind of guy myself, I can appreciate his concern.
 
So I need to know -- is the offer still good?
 
I'll accept whatever you decide.
 
If it's not going to happen, I'll simply figure out other ways to
achieve privacy during the day, times and places just to ourselves.
We're grown men; we can cope, if necessary.
 
You've been amazingly hospitable and I thank you again.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:54:48 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: Re: This may be too personal...
 
On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Cynara wrote:
 
: Hearing the good news from Wolf on-list, and not recalling seeing much
: from you, I thought I'd write and ask.  Off-list, in case this is too
: personal.
:
: Did you talk to him?  How did it go?
 
: Best of luck!
 
Cynara,
 
You must have missed the post on the list in which I said that 'yes' I
did have that talk.
 
It went well enough.  We're both new at this type of relationship with a
man, so we're nervous and taking it slowly.
 
More than that, I'd rather not discuss at the moment.
 
Thanks for your good wishes.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Noon
 
"Hey, Chief, hand me that file, wouldja?"
 
"Sure thing, mon ami."
 
"What did you say?"
 
"'Mon ami.' It's French, means 'my friend.' ... What?"
 
"Sandburg, *please* tell me you're not going to start that *here.*
 
"It's noon, Jim.  You agreed, mon frere."
 
"Sandburg.  Truck.  Lunch.  Now."
 
"<giggle>"
 
 ...
 
"Where are we going, Jim, my beau?"
 
"Somewhere where nobody knows us, my little monkey."
 
"<snicker>"
 
 ...
 
"Pass the cream, Blair, sweetie."
 
"Here ya go, my big buff kiss of saccharinity."
 
"Kiss of saccharinity?"
 
"Did I say you could criticize my lexical choices, my pet?"
 
"Frankly, I didn't hear any rules mentioned, cream puff."
 
"Um .. Jim?"
 
"Nope, no rules at all.  Lunch is on me, Sweetheart.  We better be
getting back."
 
"Back?"
 
"You having trouble with your hearing or with English, my tiny tasty
tidbit?  Back.  As in there's work to be done.  Back."
 
"Oh, man."
 
 ...
 
"Hey, Jim, give me your cup and I'll get us some more coffee."
 
"Why thanks, darlin'"
 
"Jim!  Here?!"
 
"Rules, Chief?"
 
"Well, at least keep it down to a whisper."
 
...
 
"Hey, Megan, do you have any idea What Ellison and Sandburg have been
whispering about all afternoon?"
 
"No idea, but it seems like some sort of friendly disagreement.  I'll
see if I can find out .. discreetly, of course."
 
 ...
 
"Blair-baby"
 
"Jim-julep."
 
"Precious, diminutive paramour."
 
"Ellison-pudding-pie."
 
"Luscious-lipped sugarplum"
 
"Dear, sweet, morsel for my mastication."
 
"What?!"
 
"You heard me, Jim, my muscular manna from the heavens."
 
"Smoochy-faced, love-peanut."
 
"Sugar-coated lug-nut"
 
"My Blair-blossom, cuddle-kitten."
 
"You're my honeyed love-potion, libation of the deities."
 
 ...
 
"Find out anything, Megan?"
 
"Well, Brown, they seem to be arguing over the accuracy of certain
vocabulary items."
 
 ...
 
"Blair, my wee kumquat, let's take off."
 
"Sure thing, Marshmallow butt."
 
 ...
 
"My Jim, my spoon-sticky sweetmeat."
 
"Nectar-drenched confection."
 
 ...
 
"Jim, I am smitten.  You are the fire that enflames my heart; a
succulent feast left to me by some beneficent god; a heady liquor I'm
drawn to drink in."
 
"I win."
 
"You win, Jim?"
 
"Actually, *you* win in the category of linguistic proficiency; I win
because I have you."
 
In that category, beloved, I hereby proclaim a draw."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:57:21 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Your request
 
Panther:
 
The room is yours.  And to be honest....*we girls* will probably feel
more like letting our hair down if we're not *all* sleeping on the floor
together. <g>
 
Don't know about you but we'll be getting up mighty early Friday morning
and I *so* did not want to see a bunch of women covering themselves with
their sleeping bags to avoid "you guys" seeing us with "morning hair"
<VBG>
 
BUT, and this is a very big but, we still hope you will join us in
the*party* part of slumber party?  I find myself looking forward to
hearing
a man's take on the show and the relationship between the two
guys.....Any problem?  If there is....I could find a way to hide a pea
under the mattress.....*s*
 
Hope this puts your mind at rest?  And I live in a surprisingly country
type atmosphere, on a small mountain/hill, with lots of beautiful
walking areas and greenbelts....lots of privacy and very calming.
Um....kinda romantic too.
 
See you soon.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:56:18 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected]
To: allison <[email protected]>
Subject: Thanks
 
On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Allison wrote:
 
: The room is yours.  And to be honest....*we girls* will probably feel
: more like letting our hair down if we're not *all* sleeping on the
: floor together. <g>
:
: Don't know about you but we'll be getting up mighty early Friday
: morning and I *so* did not want to see a bunch of women covering
: themselves with their sleeping bags to avoid "you guys" seeing us with
: "morning hair"
: <VBG>
 
I thought this might very well be the case.  So then, it will be of
mutual benefit.  Good.
 
: BUT, and this is a very big but, we still hope you will join us in the
: *party* part of slumber party?  I find myself looking forward to
: hearing a man's take on the show and the relationship between the two
: guys.
 
Oh, most definitely.  I didn't mean to give the impression that we
would hide all night.  We *want* to join the party. We're coming down
because we want to help out the show and well, we really need a
vacation.  It'll be interesting to meet the faces that go with the
names.
 
Once again, thanks for everything.
 
--Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:12:54 -0800 (PST)
From: allison <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Thanks again
 
Panther,
 
Glad to hear you'll be part of the "slumber party" and can't wait to
meet Blair.  Are you half as excited as I am?
 
Confession time:  and I wouldn't be "confessing" except you *are* a
gentleman and sound so sympathetic....I'm a little nervous about meeting
all the people we have been corresponding with on the list...Will they
like me?  Will I be a disappointment to anyone?  Heck, will they even
care?  Any of these feelings sound familiar?  Or am I just being a dope?
And a tad paranoid?
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:24:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Cynara <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Maybe too person
On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Cynara wrote:
 
: Hearing the good news from Wolf on-list, and not recalling seeing much
: from you, I thought I'd write and ask.  Off-list, in case this is too
: personal.
 
: Did you talk to him?  How did it go?
 
: Best of luck!
     Cynara,
 
---"[email protected] wrote:
>
> You must have missed the post on the list in which I said that 'yes'
> I did have that talk.
>
> It went well enough.  We're both new at this type of relationship with
> a man, so we're nervous and taking it slowly.
>
> More than that, I'd rather not discuss at the moment.
>
> Thanks for your good wishes.
>
> --Panther
 
Aw, isn't that sweet! (sorry, couldn't resist ;)
 
Gotcha.
 
Actually, I sent it out right before I got to your post.  Hazard of
composing before getting to the end of the inbox.
 
Glad that it's going well.
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999, about 11:00 p.m.
 
"So ... Chief, I've done some reading about our situation and was
wondering if I could ask you something."
 
"Sure, Jim.  What?"
 
"Well, I don't know how common it is for guys to hit our ages and
realize that they could be attracted to guys .. or even just one guy ...
 
"But I've read something that suggests that it happens and the sorts of
things that get in the way of .... things.  And I was wondering if any
of it is like how *you* feel.
 
"The list of 'issues' seems to include fear of the unknown, crises of
identity, and performance anxiety.  Any of that relevant, Chief?"
 
"Oh .. I would say that's a start on the list, yeah."
 
"Is there any way I can help you with that?"
 
"Well, really, the whole gender identity thing I'll have to deal with
myself because it has to do with my being comfortable with my self-
perception."
 
But fear of the unknown and performance anxiety .. yeah, maybe.
Probably.  I mean it's only logical, right? "
 
"Logical?"
 
"That you would have to help me."
 
"You're losing me."
 
"Well ... how does one overcome fear of the unknown?"
 
"Education. ...  Information. ..."
 
"By putting yourself in the position to *know.* By making it *known.*"
 
"But Blair, how are you going to do that .. if .."
 
"Yes.  I know, Jim. But I'm just not sure how one overcomes performance
anxiety, exactly."
 
"By not performing?"
 
"That's not overcoming it, that's avoidance, right?"
 
"I don't mean 'not making love'; I mean 'not performing.'"
 
"Oh."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 5 Jan 1999 about 12:30 a.m.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                           . . .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                <GASP!>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                          . . .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999, 7:00 a.m.
 
"Mornin,' Jim."
 
"Mrnnn.."
 
"Sleep well, love?"
 
"Until *now.* ... I notice you've brushed your teeth, already."
 
"I *knew* that Sentinel senses had to be good for *something,* and there
it is -- you can gauge the state of my dental hygiene from three feet
away!"
 
"I wouldn't *need* my Sentinel senses if you'd get over here where you
should be."
 
<bounce> <bounce>
<thud>
 
"<gasp!>
 
"<GASP!!>
 
<roll-roll-roll-roll-roll><crash!>
 
<thud>
 
"Ow-ow-ow-ow! Get off!"
 
"You might want to re-phrase that, Chief."
 
"Ow! Squashed! Hair pulled! Off!"
 
"Me Jim, you Blair."
 
"No...Me! You! Bed! Now!"
 
"God, I've created a monster."
 
"Aw, Jim, man, it's not *that* big."
 
. . .
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999, 9:00 a.m.
 
"Got everything packed, Chief?"
 
"Yep.  Ready to go."
 
"We'll have to make a couple of stops before we get out of town. Let's
see ... ATM .. gas .."
 
"Drug store.  Definitely, drug store."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 5 Jan 1999, 5:10 p.m.
 
"Back in the car, Chief."
 
"What?  No room at the inn?"
 
"Not for us."
 
"Not for us?  Why?  What happened?"
 
"I was busily filling out their forms and the guy was taking down the
license plate and asking the usual questions -- 'smoking or non-
smoking,' how many in your party -- and when I said 'two,' he looked out
the window and saw you getting out of the truck. ...  Then, he offered a
room with two beds. So I said that wasn't necessary. And he gave me
a*look.*
 
"I know the look, Jim."
 
"I've run into enough bigots in my life to know that look, too, but I
didn't feel we should have to pay more for a bed we're not going to use.
So I asked for a room with one bed.  And he said there weren't any
available.  And I knew he was lying.  I was so pissed off I had to get
out of there. And all I could think was 'Well, so *now* it starts."
 
"You knew it was going to start sooner or later, Jim"
 
"Yeah, but this was sooner than I expected."
 
"Regrets?"
 
"Yeah, some.  I regret that we've driven over 460 miles -- a third of it
in pouring rain and the rest in cold and fog -- I'm tired and I need to
rest and this asshole is hassling me about how many fucking beds he's
willing to rent me.
 
"I almost regret not punching his goddam lights out."
 
"Well, eventually *he'll* regret that his attitude will lose him
business.  Let me drive, Jim.  We'll just go to the next place, find a
place where we're welcome. ... Or at least treated fairly."
 
"Fair is all I ask, Chief."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 5 Jan 1999, 5:35 p.m.
 
"Let *me* go in this time, Jim."
 
 ...
 
"Just the two of you, sir?"
 
"Yes, Ma'am, just us."
 
"We're kind of full, because there's some sort of convention in town ...
so we don't have too many choices for you."
 
"We're really very tired.  What do you have?"
 
"Well, in non-smoking, I'm sorry to say we don't have any rooms with two
doubles left.  Just two singles or one double."
 
"We'll take the double."
 
"You sure you don't mind sharing, Sir?
 
"... Sir?"
 
"No, we don't have any problem with that."
 
 ...
 
"Be there in a minute, Jim."
 
 ...
 
"I don't mean to pry, Sir, but is your friend all right?"
 
"Jim?  Oh, he's OK, just tired. It's been a long drive."
 
"He's kind of cute when he smiles, isn't he?  He taken?"
 
"Yes.  Definitely."
 
"So are you, I see."
 
Ma'am?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Tues, 5 Jan 1999, 6:05 p.m.
 
"Got some quarters, Jim?"
 
"Sure, here.  Why?"
 
"For this!  Join me."
 
"Sandburg, I'm tired."
 
"But Ji-ih-ih-ihm, I-I ha-a-aven't duh-uh-uh-uhn thi-ih-ihs in
ay-ay-ay-ges!  It's fu-uh-uhn!"
 
"Well, Chief, I can definitely say that I've never met anyone who can
have so much fun on a bed."
 
"Ah-ah-ahw, ma-a-a-a-an..."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999, 8:15 a.m.
 
"What is it, Jim?"
 
"Our waitress saw us holding hands and now doesn't want to wait on us."
 
"But then why are you laughing?"
 
"We're being handed off.  Wish you could hear this; it's priceless."
 
 ...
 
<"Sheila, those two men did not come here to have sex on the table --
they came here to get their breakfast.  If you don't want 'em, give 'em
to me.">
 
<"You can have 'em.  And I thought you was a Christian.">
 
<"Honey, I *am* a Christian.  I *been* a Christian for years.  I know
the Bible says God don't approve of two men doin' what we think they do,
but let me just tell you somethin':
 
"I'm 60 years old, and I lived a long, hard, fast life before I came to
the Lord.  I know that I am not without sin myself.  And Sheila, honey,
I am too damn busy askin' for forgiveness to go pickin' up the first
stone.  And I know you know what I'm talkin' about.
 
"So if you're not going to serve these people their food, just hand it
to me so *I* can.">
 
 ...
 
"Jim?  A 30% tip?"
 
"Tell you about it in the truck."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999, 1:25 p.m.
 
"San Francisco is coming up, Jim."
 
"I see that."
 
"Didn't Carolyn move there a couple of years ago?"
 
"Yep."
 
"Were you, like, thinking of looking her up on the way down?"
 
"Now, just *why* would I want to do that, Sandburg?"
 
"Well, I thought you guys stayed friends and we're going to be ...
there ... so I just thought ..."
 
"Sandburg ... Blair ... She's my ex-*wife*."
 
"That shouldn't be a problem.  She's met me before.  We don't have to
mention anything's changed here."
 
"Are you kidding?  She knows me.  Almost as well as you do.  She'd take
one look at us and *know* on the spot.  Besides, didn't you say that
this trip was sort of like a 'honeymoon'?"
 
"Yeah, I guess not too many guys visit their ex-wives on their
honeymoons.  Would be uncool. "
 
"'Uncool' pretty much covers it, Chief."
 
 ...
 
"Jim?  How many of our other friends do you think can tell by looking at
us?  I mean, besides Megan and Carolyn."
 
"Really don't know, Chief.  We'll know soon enough, though.  You
worried?"
 
"No. .. Yes .. I don't know, a little.  You?"
 
"Not much I can do about it if they do.  I'll just have to face it when
it happens."
 
"*We* will be facing it, Jim.  Together.  Remember that."
 
"Love you too, Chief."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999, 10:35 p.m.
 
"No, Jim, man, I'm sorry -- I just can't."
 
"Aagh! Why not, Babe."
 
"Can't you *hear* that?"
 
"Chief, *I* can hear the motor in the motel pool at the back of the
building.  *I* can hear the damn bell that rings every time somebody
opens the manager's office door.  Can't I hear *what*?"
 
"Well, even a non-sentinel can hear the water-running and the TV in the
next room.  These walls are *thin,* man."
 
"Do you really think they can hear us?"
 
"Jim, *I* can hear the ticking of the clock next to the bed in *their*
room.  They can hear us."
 
 ...
 
<squeak-squawk .. squeak-squawk .. squeak-squawk .. 'ohhh,
ga-a-a-a-a-a-wd' .. >
 
"Oh man, now I can hear *them*!  I'll *never* get to sleep!"
 
"Well, Chief, they're too distracted to pay much attention to us ..
might as well join the chorus, hmm?"
 
"<giggle> Sure, Jim. .. But you gotta stop tickling, man, or I won't be
able to help you balance out that soprano."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thursday, January 7, 1999, 1:30 p.m.
 
"Chief, why don't you get started unloading the stuff while I go see if
Aly's in."
 
 ...
 
"You're *here*!"
 
"Yeah, we're here.  Blair's out getting the stuff out of the truck.
Could I ask you a favor?  Could you not refer to me as 'Panther' this
weekend, call me 'Jim,' instead?
 
"He doesn't know you're on the list? ... oh, OK ... but he does know
about slash, right?"
 
"Yes, no problem there.  It's just ... I'll tell him about the list,
eventually, but I would like to do it in my own time, all right?"
 
"Sure! Glad to help."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thursday evening January 7, 1999, 4:45 p.m.
 
"Who do we have here?"
 
"This is RG .. Gina .. Patty .. Marmot .. Tobias and Marco .. and I'm
Jenny."
 
"Well, as you may have guessed, I'm Aly.  Welcome!"
 
"Hi!  We finally meet!!!"
 
 ...
 
"Oh my *GOD*!  Look in the window!  Who is *that*?!"
 
"<giggle> That is .. um .. Jim.  He's here with his .. roommate, Blair."
 
"Roommate?"
 
"Well, let's just say that Joe and Jake are not alone ..."
 
 ...
 
"There seems to be a van full of women out there."
 
"You *would* be the first to notice that, Chief."
 
"Ha. Ha. Ha.  Just give it a rest, Jim, and let's go help them with
their stuff."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thursday night January 7, 1999, 8:10 p.m.
 
"Hey, everybody, we need to figure out the shower schedule -- who wants
tonight and who wants morning?
 
 ...
 
"OK, Marmot and Gina are taking morning ... the rest of you taking
tonight?  We have time for everybody?"
 
"Um ... well, if it helps, Jim and I can .. double up ..."
 
"Chief?"
 
"Saves time and water, Jim."
 
"Yeah, Jim, how can you resist an offer like that? ... We wouldn't.  In
fact, think how much water you could save if we went *three* at a time!
I'd be willing to help you guys out.  I could share."
 
"Well, um ... that's a .. nice offer, Jenny, but .. Jim and I um .."
 
"Very helpful idea, but my shower's a bit small for three people ...
not that I would know that for sure, of course ... but I could *imagine*
..."
 
"Aly has spoken."
 
"Aw, she just wants them to herself."
 
"Looks like we better watch ourselves, Chief, we're outnumbered here."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thursday night, January 7, 1999, 9:05 p.m.
 
"Hey, you guys, come in the kitchen for a minute."
 
...
 
"While Jim and Blair are taking their shower, I thought I'd tell you the
situation so things will go a little smoother later.  The guys *just*
got together and are just a little shy about it.  So I promised them the
guest bedroom so they can have a little privacy.
 
"Jim worried a little that it wouldn't be fair, but ..."
 
"No problem!"
 
"We got this sofa!"
 
"Tobias and Marco are sharing that sofa, who wants the other?  Marmot?
RG has the chair?  How about you, Gina?"
 
"There is a carpet, therefore, I sleep on the floor."
 
"Everybody else OK with the floor?  OK.. that's settled.  Let's go get
the tapes."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thursday Night, January 7, 1999, 9:10 p.m.
 
"What's the matter, Jim?"
 
"Nothing really.  Aly just let the ladies know why we'll be taking the
guest bedroom later."
 
"Aww, ma-an."
 
"Back to turning magenta, Chief?"
 
 ...
 
"Hand me the shampoo, Jim, I gotta get this mess washed."
 
"How 'bout I do it?"
 
"Fine, just watch the fingernails, OK? ... Mmmmmmmmm..."
 
 ...
 
"My turn to do you, Jim."
 
"That's going to be a problem.  The shower head is too low, I don't
know*how* I'm going to get any water to hit above my collarbone."
 
"You're definitely exaggerating, man."
 
"Maybe, but the way I figure it, the only way I'm going to be able to
get my head wet is to get down on my knees.
 
"Chief? .. Chief?"
 
"Um .. sure, Jim.  Go for it, I'm *there.*"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Thursday Night, January 7, 1999, 10:30 p.m.
 
"Has everybody seen the blooper tape?  Gina? No?  Jim?  Blair? No?  You
guys've never seen it?  You're in for a treat!"
 
 ...
 
"I *love* seeing them kiss!  Robert and Gary are so comfortable with
each other, have such chemistry -- it's really too bad the network won't
even let Joe and Jake hug."
 
"Yeah, they've already censored a hug from at least one very important
scene in the show -- they're such idiots!"
 
"Censorship really sucks, man, but Patty, you *know* why they did it --
they'd lose a lot of guys in their audience if they let the guys get too
..."
 
"Too ... what, Chief?"
 
"Too ... outside what the culture expects for guys.  They already talk
more to each other, stand closer to each other, touch each other more
than most guys do.  The way they are *already* really pushes the
envelope for mainstream TV.  A lot of guys are not ready to 'go there,'
and the networks know it."
 
"But why ... oh never mind .."
 
"No...  'But why' *what,* RG?"
 
"But why shouldn't there be a show that pushes the envelope. That shows
what's outside what's *expected*?  I'm tired of seeing the same old
images of men and women.  I love seeing characters like Scully and Jake
-- characters that challenge what the culture says is 'normal.'"
 
"I'm not saying I *want* the network to maintain the status quo, just
that I understand why they do it."
 
"But maybe, Chief, the usual reasons aren't good enough."
 
"Jim?"
 
"Maybe ... things might have been a bit easier for us ... if characters
like Joe and Jake could ... if the networks didn't keep feeding us the
idea that we shouldn't 'go there.'"
 
"How hard has it been for you guys, if you don't mind my asking?"
 
"No, I don't mind the question, Marmot ... but ..."
 
"Well, for one thing, Jim and I might have said something sooner ..  and
maybe *I* ... well, let's just say that it would have been less
stressful."
 
"It's pretty depressing when we're at the mercy of homophobes in the old
boy network.  I mean, guys can blow each other's heads off but they
can't hug -- what is that?!"
 
"Well, Jenny, as they say on WatchAD -- that's what fanfic is for,
right?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Friday morning, January 8, 1999, 8:20 a.m.
 
"Chief .. Blair .. Wake up, buddy."
 
"Grrmmmrrrnn."
 
"That's easy for you to say."
 
"zza coffee?"
 
"Good guess.  Instant french roast."
 
"We gotta wake up, Chief -- everybody's leaving at ten."
 
"Coffee first. Sit, Jim."
 
"Well, it appears as though vocabulary items make their comeback before
sentence structure.  You should write a paper on that.
 
"Why, Chief!  Such rude gestures first thing in the morning?  I'm
shocked."
 
<knock-knock>
 
"Hey, guys?  You up, yet?"
 
"Not yet, Aly.  It takes an old guy like me much longer ... and even
Blair needs more encouragement than a cup of coffee."
 
"<giggle> ... Well, how much encouragement does he need?  Anything you
want us to help you with?"
 
"No, that's OK.  Nothing I can't handle ... We'll come out soon."
 
"Oh my God, Jim.  Don't ... Aw, man ... Just ... not now!"
 
"From the sounds of things, I'd say you already have."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Friday afternoon, January 8, 1999, 2:45 p.m.
 
"Jim, where'd the woman with the name tags go?"
 
"I saw two. They went off in opposite directions. The blonde went ...
over there."
 
"You gonna get one?"
 
"Aww, I dunno, Chief.  I'm not really the nametag kinda guy."
 
"Well, since I've been on the Watchman list, I thought I'd let other
listsibs know I'm here."
 
"That's just fine for you, Chief ..."
 
"But .. well .. I sort of .. told people you were coming to the Rally
with me -- hey! I didn't tell them your name or anything -- so ... but
if anyone meets me they'll want to meet you and ..."
 
"OK.  I'll wait here by the door, save our places.  You go get us both
one."
 
...
 
"Here ya go, sir."
 
"Thanks."
 
"A lotta people are writing their on-line nicks in larger letters, their
real names below."
 
"Makes sense."
 
...
 
"Here ya go, Jim ... What?"
 
"It really *was* you!"
 
"It really was me *what*?"
 
"You really were Wolf."
 
"Jim? ..... Jim?  What do you *mean,* man?"
 
"Just give me the pen a minute..."
 
"Jim?  What's going on?  What's with the weird face, man?"
 
"There, that should just about do it .. probably just about finishes it
.."
 
"Whatsamatter, Jim? .. Finishes what? .... <gasp!> Aww, ma-an, it
was*you*?!  YOU?!!"
 
"Chief, I --"
 
"Don't even touch me, man."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Friday afternoon, January 8, 1999, 2:55 p.m.
 
"Don't! .. You fuckin' *lied* to me, man."
 
"Chief, not here."
 
<SHHHH!>
 
"What's with the shushing?"
 
"It's part of the agreement with the hotel.  We can have the rally
inside, use one of the rooms, if we're quiet out here."
 
<SHHHH!>
 
"You're lucky, man.  This is *not* over.  We're having this out after
all this is done.  And you are in such deep shit."
 
"Chief--"
 
"Don't you 'Chief' me, Ellison."
 
<SHHHH!>
 
"Blair--"
 
"Ohmigod! The chats! .. The rehearsal!  .. What I said! .. You are so
dead meat, man."
 
<SHHHH!>
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Friday evening, January 8, 1999, 7:35 p.m.
 
"What did you know and when did you know it, Ellison?"
 
"Don't talk to me like I'm some sort of Nixon clone, Sandburg.  And keep
it down -- Aly and the rest will hear you."
 
"Just answer the question-- No! No!  I have a better one: When were you
going to tell me, Jim?  *Were* you going to tell me?  Ever?"
 
"Yes, Blair, I was going to tell you."
 
"When?  How long were you going to pose as my comrade-in-angst?  Elicit
my confidences?  <'Chief'>  Did you like 'coaching' me how to come out
to you?  How *I* had to come out to you -- what?! so you wouldn't have
to?  <'Chief'>  "And the advice about sex!  My God!  The panic attacks!
How could you say you loved me and let me go through all that pain and
panic?!"
 
"Chief? .. Blair? .. You ok?"
 
"No, I am *not* ok."
 
...
 
"Aly?  Could we please have a small paper bag?"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Friday Evening, January 8, 1999, 7:55 p.m.
 
"Better?"
 
"A little. .. But you better start talkin', man.  ..  When did you
know?"
 
"I had been on WatchAD from early November.  I wasn't sure how you'd
take it if you knew, so ....  And then mid-November 'Wolf' introduced
himself to the list.  Do you know how good it felt to have another *guy*
to talk to about this stuff?!"
 
"Yes.  I do, Jim."
 
"Yes, I guess you do. .. So then, I de-lurked.  I'd never posted to a
list or a chat room in my life.  But I had to make contact.  I didn't
know it was you. Not yet, anyway."
 
"When, Jim?"
 
"It's really not that straightforward, Blair.  There were times early on
when I *suspected* but I couldn't say I *knew.* Didn't you ever suspect,
Chief?  ... Chief?"
 
"Well, to be honest ..."
 
"You suspected?  Or *knew*?  You indulging in a little hypocrisy here,
Sandburg?"
 
"I suspected at one point -- even ran a finger search on 'Panther's'
addy, but your ISP refused the search.  But that was back early in
December about the time they announced the Rally.  After that, I started
having doubts.  It was like I 'knew' but I didn't know-know, you know?"
 
"Yes, I do know.  I think I suspected about then, too.  I vacillated.
There'd be days I was *sure* and then ..."
 
"...You had doubts."
 
"Yeah, but sometimes it wasn't even like that.  To tell the truth, I
didn't *want* to know.  There were so many clues .. But ..  I just ..
Did. Not. Want. To believe it.  Because if I did .. "
 
"If you did, *what*?"
 
"If I *knew* it was you, if I let myself *believe* it was you, I'd be
alone, Chief.  I'd have no one to talk to about .. things."
 
"What about *me,* Jim?"
 
"But Blair, you weren't talking to me; you would only talk to 'Panther.'
I really needed help and 'Wolf' was *there* ... And if I lost 'Wolf' ...
 
"Aww, man, Jim. .. "
 
"It's almost like I needed *two* of you, if that makes any sense."
 
"Seems I was doing the same thing, man.  What a mess!  ..
 
"I guess there's an up side to all this -- we seem to be drawn to each
other, whether we can see each other or not.  Welcome to cyberspace,
 man.
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Saturday evening, January 9, 1999, 7:30 p.m.
 
"What's this bag doing in my suitcase, Sandburg?"
 
"Just a little something I picked up for you this morning at Paramount's
Citywalk.  Jenny and Patty helped me pick them out."
 
"Boxers?"
 
"Not just boxers, Jim. ...  Here, bring them into the bathroom. ...  Now
turn out the light."
 
"Glow in the dark boxers?!"
 
"Yeah.  Thought they'd help you lighten up a bit.  Read the back, man."
 
"'Hottest Buns in America'?"
 
"Yeah, man.  It's *you*!"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Sunday January 11, 1999, 7:15 p.m.
 
"We'll be home tomorrow, Jim."
 
"Yep."
 
"Don't we need to work a few things out before we go back?"
 
"Yeah, probably."
 
"'Probably?' Jim.  Do we know where this relationship goes after this?
What do we tell people?  *Do* we tell people?"
 
"At work, it'll have to be 'need to know,' Chief."
 
"What about Simon?"
 
"I guess he needs to know."
 
...
 
"Are we going to tell the list?"
 
"Oh, man!  The list!"
 
"They were pretty supportive.  And you promised them a report, Chief."
 
"Yeah-yeah .. It's just .. The stuff you *said* about me, Jim."
 
"Do you think they'll even remember any of it?"
 
"I don't know, man.  Some of those people have incredible memories for
detail.  Have you *read* the analyses of the characters on that list?"
 
"Yeah, well, they're pretty tuned in to Joe and Jake.  Doesn't mean
anything about us."
 
"But Jim!  Some people actually *save* the posts.  All they have to do
is look back. ... I mean, you said I was *immature,* man."
 
"I said a lot of things.  More about myself than about you.  What's
'immature' next to coming out to 700 strangers as bisexual?  Besides,
consider the context.  I was talking about my fears of aging.  About
losing my hair, my body, my attractiveness, my ability to .. perform .."
 
"Jim you are so not old.."
 
"I was afraid you wouldn't want me .. or that you wouldn't stay with me
if .."
 
"And now, Jim? ...  Jim?
 
"... Jim, c'mon!  I already love ya, man.  It's not like I ever knew you
when you *had* any hair.  And if this is what you call losing your body,
well ... most guys never had a body then, because you are .. just ...
well, just don't worry about that, ok?"
 
"Well, you should just know .. be prepared .. that .. well, when guys
get older .. "
 
"You talkin' sluggish hydraulics, Jim? .. I already know a little about
that.  I'm only hitting 30, and sometimes the hards are not as hard as
they used to be.
 
"... Good to see I'm not the only one that gets to turn pink once in a
while.  ...  So .. sometime down the road we'll turn into a couple of
old softies.  We'll work it out together, right?"
 
"Looks like I'm going to have to write my own report to the list."
 
"Jim?"
 
"A retraction on my premature pronouncement of your immaturity."
 
"Well, so far, that's the only thing that's been premature, so we're in
luck.
 
<Whack!>
 
"Hey! No fair, all the pillows are on your side of the bed!"
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Sunday January 11, 1999, 9:15 p.m.
 
"Really, I'm sort of glad we had 'Wolf' and 'Panther' as friends, Jim."
 
"You are? .. But they weren't *real.*"
 
"Sure they were, Jim -- they were *us.* We're real, right?"
 
"If you say so."
 
"Jim.."
 
"So why are *you* glad we had fictional friends that really were real
because they really were us?"
 
"Very funny, man.  Well, I just think ... I mean ... Do you really think
you would have .. you know .. in the phonetics lab ..  otherwise?"
 
"Now, *that* was coherent.  OK, yes.  I mean *no.* I don't think I would
have had the confidence to try talking to you about .. things, if I
hadn't sort of practiced opening up to 'Wolf,' first."
 
"Same here.  Can you imagine how much of a basket case I would have been
without my talks with 'Panther'?!"
 
"Worse than New Year's Eve, Chief?"
 
"Way worse."
 
"I don't get it.  If you're so prone to panic attacks, how do you *do*
anything?"
 
"I'm not normally that bad, Jim."
 
"Well, that's flattering."
 
"No, it's not like that.  It's .. most things I do are .. *normal* .."
 
"Normal?  You?"
 
"Ha. Ha. Ha. How droll. .. I mean, normal for me.  I've been in college
since I was 16.  I've had relationships, such as they were, with women
for .. well, several years .. I've gone on field studies several times.
All the things I do have become 'normal' -- nothing to panic about."
 
"What about getting shot at or kidnapped and all of that?"
 
"Well, then there's somewhere for all that adrenaline to *go.* I'm not
just sitting there scared out of my pants for no obvious reason; there's
an identifiable horror to face and either a place I can run to or some
sort of thing to fight with.  All that energy gets to *go* somewhere,
man."
 
"So .. with me ..?"
 
"It wasn't about you-you, it was about a *guy*-you."
 
"You weren't afraid of me-me, just guy-me."
 
"Right."
 
"Sandburg, that makes no sense.  'Me-me' *is* a 'guy-me.' Shit!  I'm
starting to *talk* like you."
 
"Well, yeah, I know it doesn't make sense.  If what I felt made sense,
my room wouldn't be full of paper bags right now."
 
"So-o, let me get this straight:  You'll stop panicking around me -- not
me-me, *guy*-me -- once we become 'normal' or there's somewhere for all
that energy to go.  Sounds great to me, Chief.  Let's get to work on
it!"
 
"Jim?"
 
"You just told me what we have to do, Blair.  Which do you think we
should try first -- doing it a lot or trying to use up that energy
of yours all at once?"
 
"Aw, man ... "
 
"Yes.  I am.  Deal with it."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Monday night, January 11, 1999, 10:40 p.m.
 
"<chuckle>"
 
"What?"
 
"I was just remembering some of the stuff Wolf .. um .. *you* said on
the list."
 
"Was I really that funny, Jim?"
 
"Well, .. not intentionally ..<chuckle> .."
 
"Jim..  What?!"
 
"Did you really try tasting yourself?"
 
"Yes. Yes, I did.  And if you remember that, you remember why."
 
"Easy .. easy.  Sorry.  It's just .... "
 
"I was being empirical, Jim.  Doing some testing.  How was *I* to know
that I couldn't extrapolate my findings from one test subject to
another?!"
 
"Well, Chief what *were* your findings?"
 
"Why don't you just find out for yourself?"
 
"Aw, Chief, more tests?"
 
"The best part of the scientific method, Jim."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Tuesday morning, January 12, 1999, 5:30 a.m.
 
"Wake up, Sleepybutt."
 
"Nooooooo mmmrmrrrm..."
 
"<chuckle>"
 
...
 
"Chief? .. Chief, sit up. Coffee."
 
"Mrrrnng, Jm..."
 
"C'mon, Blair, we gotta get up."
 
"But it's still *dark*!"
 
"Promised Simon we'd be back to the station this morning.  Early."
 
"Coffee?"
 
"Right here.  But ya gotta sit up.  Don't want ya to spill it."
 
...
 
"We gonna tell 'im?"
 
"Probably should.  When the time's right.  Don't ya think?"
 
"Yeah.  Probably. ... What you gonna say, man?"
 
"Don't really know.  Think of something."
 
"Probably won't have to."
 
"You think we're that obvious?"
 
"Maybe not you, Jim, but Megan saw right through *me.* ... And besides,
remember when Tanya in clerical and Eric the tow truck driver *finally*
got together?"
 
"Yeah, you're right.  Couldn't miss it.  At first, I thought there was
something *wrong* with her.  Rapid pulse.  Shallow breathing.  Flushed
face.  Thought it was an incipient attack of asthma."
 
"Ah, my Jim, ever the romantic."
 
"And then she told her clerk buddies downstairs. You could hear the
squeals from the third floor!"
 
"Well, *you* could, anyway."
 
"So ... you think all our heavy breathing will give us away?"
 
"<chuckle> Maybe."
 
"Maybe not, though.  If we've felt this way for a couple of years, then
maybe we won't look any different."
 
"Tanya and Eric were making goo-goo eyes at each other for *months*
before they finally did anything about it."
 
"'Goo-goo eyes,' Chief?"
 
"But as soon as .. the deed was done .. as they say ... *everybody*
just*knew.* They'll know, Jim."
 
"Well, so .. I guess we won't have to say anything, then."
 
"Ah, my Jim, the pragmatist."
 
"I thought I was 'your Jim, the romantic.'"
 
"Whatever you are, Jim, you're *mine*"
 
"You're right -- they'll know."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Tuesday morning, January 12, 1999, 7 a.m.
 
"Why'd ya hit 'hold,' Jim?"
 
"Gotta ask before we get off the elevator.  You gonna be OK with people
knowing?  You ready for this?"
 
"Kind of late to be askin' me *now,* isn't it?"
 
"Well?"
 
"Ready when you are, J. E. .. Kiss me, first?"
 
"Why is it I feel like we're replaying the ending of 'Thelma and
Louise'?"
 
"Which one of us got Brad Pitt? -- mmmmph! Mmmmm...mmmm...
 
"Ready!  Definitely ready, Jim. .. Jim?"
 
"Gimme a minute."
 
"I'll give you a hint, Jim: loose pants and over-sized shirts."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Tuesday morning, January 12, 1999, 7:15 a.m.
 
"Ellison!  Sandburg!  My office."
 
...
 
"You gentlemen get that family matter taken care of?"
 
"Yes, sir."
 
"Whatever it was .. out of your system?"
 
"Not exactly, Simon."
 
"Jim?"
 
"Some understandings have been reached, sir, but this isn't something
that I'm likely to .. get 'out of my system,' any time soon."
 
"Blair?"
 
"I'm with Jim, Simon, all the way."
 
"Well, whatever it is, don't let it interfere with your work.  That
clear, gentlemen?"
 
"Crystal, Sir."
 
"Sure, Simon."
 
"That'll be all. .. And guys?"
 
"Hmm?"
 
"Congratulations."
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:22:06 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
From: Gina Collum <[email protected]>
Subject: 'puter crash & obwatchad
 
Got home from the Watchman rally at 10:30pm Sunday, turned on the
roomie's computer expecting to get started on a week's worth of WXF,
WatchAD, w2p2, and slashpoint... and the 'puter wouldn't boot.  A friend
is downloading and saving my mail so hopefully stuff won't bounce.  My
sis and I were planning to get a new 'puter anyway; we'll prolly
purchase it next week.  Guess my rally report's gonna be late.  In the
meantime...
 
Ann -- I'm still working on the FAQ, I swear, I just haven't posted the
changes yet.  I'm trying not to be redundant with Maeg's Survival Guide.
 
Bast, Wolfling, and anyone else wondering about "Improv" -- it's still
in progress, but I hope to get it done soon.  (Thanks for asking, Bast!)
 
SammieC and EagleEye -- heh heh, this past week, a few more elements of
plot fell into place on the other auction story.  And I'm thinking about
changing the title *again*.  :)  EE, please say hi to the #watchman and
#watchslash folk for me.
 
Virg -- I know it's been weeks since you wrote me about what I posted on
the subject of why some of us complain about sex scenes interrupting
plot, but I did write a reply and will send it when I can. Wasn't
purposely ignoring you, I just get overwhelmed around the holidays.
 
Jencat, Panther & Wolf, Patty, Marmot & sons, ratgirl, Allison (thank
you again for the hospitality) -- It was great meeting y'all!  I look
forward to another gathering.  Soon.  It sounds like some of you
<casually glancing in Panther's direction> don't take nearly enough
vacations. <weg>
 
Jencat -- Thanks for arranging the vanpool!  I had a great time.  Are we
Bay Area fen making plans to see the return of "The Watchman" together?
Guess I'll get in touch by phone.
 
Happy new year, everyone.
 
obwatchad: oooOOooo*
 
Jake bounced into the loft, looking forward to next week's scheduled
return of his favorite TV show, "The Guardian".
 
"Yes.  Okay," Joe was saying into the phone, facing the balcony. "Fine.
Whatever."
 
Jake stopped dead, looking at his partner.  Then he carefully set down
his keys and backpack.
 
Joe touched the cutoff button and tucked his cell back into the pocket
of his coat.  Moving slowly, he shed the coat and left it on the floor.
 
"What's the matter?" Jake said finally.
 
"It was my dad."  Joe's eyes were just touched with red, the only hint
of unhappiness in his too-normal expression.
 
Jake crossed the living room, hung up the coat, then returned to Joe's
side.  "What did he say?"
 
Joe shrugged.
 
Sliding his arms around Joe's waist, Jake lay his head on his lover's
shoulder -- because it was what Joe wanted to do, because it was what
 
Joe could not do.  Because only Jake could do it for him.
*end*
 
--Gina, Keeper of Joe's table legs
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Rally Report, Part 1
 
Well, fellow fen, I'm back.  And what a trip it was!
 
I promised the list that I would give a report as soon as I returned
from LA.  Well, there've been a couple of RL considerations I've had to
attend to.  But now I'm ready.
 
I've decided to write the report in parts as they occur to me.  Some of
my observations deal strictly with the show and others have more to do
with how the weekend went .. socially and personally.
 
Several people have already given their reports, I'm sure, but I haven't
had time to sort through the 674 messages in my inbox, yet, so I don't
know how much will be repetition.
 
Here goes ...
 
While we were on our way down, some of the timeline for the events
changed.  It worked to our advantage, though, since postponing the rally
until the afternoon allowed us to get more sleep Friday morning,
something I really appreciated after spending 3 days on the road.
 
The first official event was the tour through the Burbank offices of
Cuddly Termite Productions.
 
Sometimes there wasn't much to see, especially in the hallways, but we
did get to meet one of the editors, who was working on a scene from one
of the upcoming episodes.  I saw one 2-second scene, in which Joe is
looking at a grave-marker.  But I hear that others on other tours saw
longer, more spoiler-laden scenes.
 
I can report that our letters, e-mail and websites have definitely been
noticed by Cuddly Termite.  They were taped all over the wall of one
office!
 
We got to briefly say "hi" to the writer of one of the eps from third
season -- the 'basketball' episode.
 
The tour was quite interesting at times, but I would say that one of the
highlights was this POSTER.
 
Let me just preface this by saying that until I fell in love with my
roomie, I hadn't really paid attention to guys' .. um .. physical
attractiveness [can we say 'denial?].  And I never really noticed that
my roomie looked so much like Robert Bergman.  Not exactly, but similar.
 
Well, I was walking down yet another hallway at Cuddly Termite, when I
heard a chorus of feminine gasps and moans.  Curious, I looked through
the office window which separated us from what seemed to serve as an
icon there on the opposite wall.  And what was this icon, this source of
combined agony and pleasure?
 
THE POSTER!
 
There in his tank-topped glory was Robert Bergman circa 1996, smiling
smugly at the camera, his expression saying, "you *know* you want it."
And I found myself thinking, "Oh god! Yes, I *do.*"
 
Those arms! That chest! Those shoulders!  It hurt to look!
 
And what was the caption?  "The Most Sensitive Man in America"
 
Flashes flashed for long minutes and breathless fen asked where we could
get copies of the poster.  We were told that there weren't any.  Several
fen were heartbroken.  Others promised to put photos of it up on
websites for our ... enjoyment.
 
For some reason, my roomie was not as affected by it.  I guess when you
see a similar build to that in the mirror every day, you get kind of
inured to it.
 
The roomie had his own moment, though, when we got to see the casting
office.  There on the wall was a picture of a slightly younger Gary
Magnum with jaw-length hair.  You've seen the picture on one of the
websites, I'm sure.  Roomie took one look and stopped our tour-line
cold. For a *long* time.  I might have been embarrassed but it was just
too funny to watch.
 
I can report that the tour guide and all the people we met at Cuddly
Termite were quite friendly and approachable.  And my fellow fen were
polite and fun to be around.
 
I'll end Part 1 here and post a bit later about the actual "Rally."
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Rally Report, Part 2 (Spoilers)
 
After the visit to Cuddly Termite's Burbank offices, we headed for the
hotel.
 
Once again, there had been slight changes in plans after we had left my
computer behind.  We discovered that very view fen dressed as casually
as I had expected.  I normally don't worry about this sort of thing but
I didn't want TPTB to discount our efforts as those of the great
'unwashed.'
 
I needn't have worried about my own contribution to appearances, I soon
discovered, since it wasn't my wardrobe but my gender that caused me to
stand out in the crowd.
 
Yes, listsibs, just as there are probably no more than 5 males on this
list, there were perhaps a total of 5 males in the crowd.
 
The demographics of the attending fen contrasted sharply with the
demographics of the attending spokesMEN on stage.
 
My roomie thinks I'm making too big a deal about this, but I found
myself wondering just how well the two groups would be able to
communicate with each other, whether in fact, what the fans asked for,
the creators would even understand well enough to deliver. But I
digress.
 
Rather than an auditorium or theater setting, we found ourselves in some
sort of banquet room at circular tables of about 8 each.  Our hosts set
up 3 TVs so that fen in all sections of the room could see the episode,
one that would come midway in the 4th season.
 
It was quite an amazing experience watching an ep in an audience of
about 250 excited fans. I found myself laughing, listening to hundreds
of women cheering and booing and laughing so loudly that I missed lines
and even a sense of the whole episode. [Not a complaint, just an
observation]
 
They cheered when they saw the intro and heard the new music; they
cheered when they saw the episode title and the names of the stars.
They cheered and laughed at little character moments, little touches of
continuity tying this episode to earlier ones.
 
Without giving away too much of the episode, I wish to comment on a
couple of aspects.
 
This was a Jake-centric episode.  We got to see more of him in his role
as an academic, a role I can identify with.  This was something I had
been hoping for.
 
But I felt that there was something lacking in the camaraderie between
Joe and Jake.  It's not just that there were fewer scenes in which they
were on-screen together -- that made sense with the plot, I guess.  But
when they were on-screen, they seemed less 'together.' Their body
language was more distant, separate.  It bothered me.
 
I'm hoping that this results from some logical, canonical situation and
not from some homophobic political meddling.
 
After we viewed the episode, we had the pleasure of seeing Davey Belman,
Peter DuMaurier, Bill A. Yancy, and Robert Bergman take the stage for a
brief Q&A.
 
Robert was his usual charming, wry self, creating a 'spotlight' for
himself from a small flashlight, as he walked on stage.
 
Most of the Q&A was friendly and appropriate, a lot of the time spent in
sort of a mutual admiration and gratitude.
 
I've decided to focus on parts of the Q & A not exactly covered in
previous reports.  Or let's say that I plan to focus on that aspect a
bit differently, when I post Part 3.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: The Rally Report, Part 3 (Possible Spoilers)
 
Whenever I see the names of collaborators linked together with an 'and,'
I'm at least temporarily fooled into believing that they will be similar
in personality and outlook.  Fooled every time, even after knowing about
Lennon and McCartney.  Got to get over that.
 
The names 'Belman and DuMaurier' had me fooled until I watched the Q&A.
Can we say Yin and Yang?  (I'll return to this later)
 
So first I should start with the questions that were not asked, the
'negative space,' so to speak.
 
The slash aficionados held their tongues, that of course being the
politic thing to do.  No one asked whether DB would relent, as has Chris
Carter apparently done with Mulder and Scully, and allow the partners to
'leak' some of their true feelings for each other.  I know *I* held back
on that one.
 
Also, while the fen were abuzz with the kind of gossip we are not
allowed to discuss on WatchAD, no one sought to have our inferences
confirmed.
 
But it went further than this.  We didn't refrain merely from asking
whether Gary Magnum and a certain actress were 'an item.' We refrained
from asking where the hell he was, I'm assuming because everyone was too
embarrassed or polite to ask.  And we all knew, anyway.
 
But the silence sort of drew my attention to the fact that he was not
there, but in Australia on vacation.  It was a loud silence.
 
OK, on to the questions that drew my attention.
 
Before I left, I asked the listsibs which questions they wanted me to
ask or report on.  I'll answer those first.
 
Panther asked whether, by looking at the new episode, we could tell if
the new season would be more or less slashy.  I think it's hard to tell
how 8 episodes will go based on this one.  My impression of this
particular episode was that it was definitely LESS slashy.  But I'm
going to have to reassess when I view it in the context of the whole
season, because I got the impression we were up against another 'arc,'
in which one episode had to be understood in the context of those
surrounding it.
 
Yeah, I know, wishy-washy.
 
Panther's other question had to do with the direction of season 5.
Season 5 has NOT BEEN WRITTEN, yet.  DB said he would not even start
writing until May, when he found out whether there would even be a
season 5. [He admits to having a general sort of idea, but no solid
plans]
 
There is a down side and an up side to this.  The down side for me is
that it seems as though he lacks confidence in the network's ability to
see past their prejudices.  He put all his effort into closing out this
segment of the series, trying to go out with a bang, hoping he's left
enough of a viable opening should TPTB get a clue.
 
But the UP side is ... Hey, guys!  we can write to him and make
suggestions about how we want the 5th season to go -- things we would
like to see!  We can be involved in the brainstorming process.  Way
Cool!!
 
Casey asked about what the network was going to do about advertising.
What I found surprising was that DB and PDM said *they did not know*
what the advertisers had planned.  The whole advertising thing is out of
their hands!
 
A corollary to that is that merchandising, something they would LOVE to
do, is also out of their hands.  It's all up to US to request it.
 
Big surprise for me!
 
Now the thing that really stood out for me -- the differences between DB
and PDM.
 
The 'slashiest' question asked was a request for hugs between the guys.
 
PDM did NOT 'get it.' He made a face like it was a weird request, like
it was slightly off the wall or from left field or whatever. DB seemed
to nod and say yes, he thought there were hugs.  He was a bit befuddled
but seemed to grasp the import of the question.  PDM concluded that yes
there were 'manly displays of affection.'
 
In what I think was a related question, someone asked about the gender
of the fan base.  DB seemed quite happy with the fact that the 'fans
were all women' [I knew what he meant, so I didn't take offense.] But
PDM seemed to feel it was necessary to assert that there were a LOT of
men out there watching -- millions in fact.  They just didn't go to
rallies or write letters.
 
I couldn't tell whether PDM's concerns about demographics were political
or personal.
 
Finally, DB said that much of what went into these new, eight eps were
as a result of things we said we liked or wanted to see.
 
I've been reading the spoiler list since I returned and noticed that
several people interpreted this pronouncement differently from how I
did.  I don't think he meant that whole plot points or substance was
added or changed for us.
 
I think he meant that because we see the details -- like the frozen peas
on the injuries -- he included a lot of those little touches for us --
the focused fans -- to get.  Almost like little 'in' jokes.
 
In fact, during our viewing of the episode, many people laughed at these
little touches, the laughter of recognition that 'yeah, that's what Jake
would do.'
 
PDM, in contrast, [IMHO] commented that he didn't realize the episode
was that funny.
 
What I felt I was seeing were some real cultural differences between the
audience and the creators of this show as well as perceptual differences
between the collaborators.  And those differences seemed to be causing
misfires in communication.
 
The goodwill was there but the differences were causing interference,
IMHO.
 
Well, I seem to have gone on kinda long and my ... um .. roomie has
requested my presence.  So I guess I'll get off now.
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Rally Report, Part 4 -- the personal stuff
 
Well, listsibs, if you've read parts 1-3 of my report, you could
probably tell that they were hard to write -- I felt so .. like I had to
be more formal or something.  Like some sort of newspaper reporter.
 
Well, if you don't mind, I really want to tell you about my trip to LA,
the fen I met, and some news on the home front. Lighten up a bit.
 
(I know that not all WatchADians like to read the personal stuff, so I
separated it from the REPORT.  That way, if you want to delete this, you
won't miss any juicy gossip about 'the guys.' ;) )
 
My roomie and I took off Tuesday morning the 5th, driving through heavy
rain in Washington, followed by cold and fog in Oregon and northern
California.  Finally able to thaw out in LA!
 
We had a bit of trouble with accommodations on the trip down, since some
service employees here and there had problems relating to two guys so
obviously smitten. (Love that word, 'smitten.')  But on the whole,
people were friendly. There is hope!
 
We were the first guests to unload on poor Aly!  We must have been
pretty ripe from our days on the road.  But Aly was quite the host!
 
Turns out that Aly is really Allison.  This was pretty weird since I had
originally made arrangements on my own to stay with her but then
canceled saying that my roommate was making the arrangements.  Since
I've had to be careful not using my roomie's or my real name on-line, we
never put it all together.  This led to another strange coincidence I'll
tell you about later...
 
So anyway, about 30 minutes after we arrived, this huge van pulled up
and out piled Jenny, Patty, RG, Gina, Marmot and her sons, Tobias and
Marco.
 
After we all got settled, claiming our sleeping spots and shower times,
we did a video-watching marathon.  Gina and RG are relatively new to TW
so we watched some favorite key eps for the slash-aware. And half of us
had never seen the blooper reel, so that was on the agenda as well.
 
Aly cooked up a huge, filling pot of spaghetti.  Then, after dinner, she
gave us the tour of the house, especially the kitchen and announced that
she is "Jake-ish."  I was puzzled by that, until she reminded us of that
great scene from season one, when Joe is hanging out with Jake in the
warehouse.  Joe says, "I could use a beer," and Jake says, "It's in the
fridge, man." ;)  The moral: Help yourself!
 
Well, I could tell you the minute-by-minute run-down of the weekend, but
instead I'll sort of run through the stuff that kinda surprised me.
 
I was a little surprised by Marmot's 11-year-old son, Tobias and his
brother Marco.  Seems they were the original fans at her house.  They're
 pretty precocious, slightly slash-aware but think the whole thing is
pretty funny.  During the more outrageous 'parlor games,' they were
 asleep (or we're pretty sure they were asleep).
 
We're not used to just hanging out with a lot of women, so we took turns
going outside to play Frisbee with Tobias and Marco, who seemed to
appreciate it.  They confided that hanging out with their mom's friends
was kind of weird.
 
Another surprise, which many people experience, is finding out that the
mental picture you have of an on-line acquaintance differs so much from
reality.  I'm sure *I* was a shock to them!
 
Like Aly.  I pictured her as about 5' 10" tall and having waist-length
blonde hair.  I so do not have a clue where that picture came from.
Turns out she's still pretty tall but not that tall.  And her hair is
short and light brown with sort of blonde streaks.
 
And age.  I was sure that everybody was around my age, you know
somewhere between 25 and 35.  But Aly, RG, and Marmot are really in
their 40s and Gina was only about 22 or 23.  Only Jenny and Patty fit
that part of the picture!
 
(My .. um .. paramour wants me to add that he's closer to 40 than to 30
also and that the ladies' ages weren't really good predictors of
behavior. [Those were not his words, but that's what he meant.])
 
I was pretty amazed by how different women are from men. In *behavior*!
You know what I mean!! (My sweetie is looking over my shoulder and
making rude remarks about my writing.  Now he's questioning my use of
the word 'sweetie' .. Back in a minute.)
 
Sorry, I've lost my train of thought.  Oh yeah, some differences
between men and women, you know, besides the obvious ones.
 
Like picking places to sleep.  No one bothered to fight over places to
sleep.  Aly let us use the guest bedroom and nobody seemed to care.
Tobias and Marco  claimed one of the sofas and people just sort of
grabbed places on the floor.  There was no competition or conflict in
it.  No flipping coins or arguments.  Very strange but kinda cool.
 
Also, the next day, when we all went to lunch together between the visit
to Cuddly Termite and the Rally, my roommate just about lost it [quietly
and politely, of course] while the women at the table passed the bill
around and each figured what she owed.  Accurately, I might add.  It was
a real trip to watch that muscle in his jaw just sort of pop a bit.  I
just knew he wanted someone to do the 'normal' thing and *grab* that
sucker and pay the whole thing.  A bit of a culture clash -- what a
hoot!
 
Roomie had been told that one of the nights would be a slumber party.
We knew nothing of what to expect.  Well, let me tell you, I had
no*idea* how raunchy women could get when they talk about stuff,
especially slash.  I thought you all on the *list* were blunt!  There is
no part of the human anatomy or its function that they will NOT discuss
with quite a bit of candor and with great relish!  Not for the faint of
heart.  I can think of several fellow students who could write whole
papers on this little linguistic find!
 
I also found out that the whole mutual grooming thing I had heard about
-- hairbrushing and putting on each other's makeup -- is really not what
happens after adolescence, at least that's what they told me.
 
I was a little disappointed.  I like getting my hair brushed...
 
And the games!  Jenny introduced this game, which Marmot admits to
having played in junior high school, called "He/She."  It's sorta like
Madlibs.
 
Each person has a slip of paper on which you write the answer to a
question.  You cover the answer and pass the paper to the left and that
person answers the next question until about 8 questions have been
answered.  The result is a story.
 
This is what the sequence can look like when you're done:
 
Who is HE                     Mulder
 
Who is SHE                    Scully
 
Where are they                In the Basement
 
What are they doing           The Macarena
 
What did he say               I want to believe
 
What did she say              Mulder, It's me
 
Who saw them                  Skinner and Scully's mother
 
What did the
people who saw, say?          Get down from there;
                               you'll break your necks
 
What did they reply           The Truth is out there
 
How did it end?               A 4-way on Mulder's rolodex
**
 
Except we made it HE/HE and the parts ended up making NO sense.
 
So you could end up with these stories, like...
 
Jake and Joe were in interrogation room #3 playing 'cop-in-leather meets
the free-love hippie.' Jake says, "I'm not in the mood to have my head
ventilated by some pissed-off magpie!"  Joe replies, "Yeah, or maybe the
sun won't rise."  Mulder and Krycek saw them and said, "The truth!  You
couldn't handle the truth!"  And Jake and Joe replied, "NO!  It's not
over!"  And it all ended in a double wedding complete with Irish step
dancers and lots of lube.
 
After lots of beverages and multiple rounds of this game, the
raunchiness factor and the laughter rose considerably.
 
I had to usher my roomie off to bed sort of early, due to his
sensitivity to noise, especially the rather loud, high-pitched sound of
the feminine guffaw.
 
(My sweetie wants me to tell you that it wasn't personal, that he
actually had a good time up until the end when we started pairing up our
favorite slash guys with the people at the party. (I think he was just
jealous that Jenny got Joe) Oh, no, he says he wanted Jake.  I stand
corrected.)
 
My roommate, who will kill me if I call him sweetie one more time, is
nagging me to get off the computer.  So I will end Part 4 here.
 
Hope this wasn't too long.
 
Had a great time!
 
--Wolf
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: WatchAD: Going on Digest
 
Listsibs:
 
Wolf and I have talked things over and have decided to co-author this
post.
 
We're a bit nervous about this but many on this list have sent us their
good wishes and offered advice over the past two months, so we feel that
we owe it to you to do this.
 
Just as Allison and a few other sibs suspected from the beginning, we
discovered -- during the rally -- that while we had been writing to each
other about our feelings for our roommates -- all this time, we were
really writing about each other.
 
The clues were there, at least for me, but at first, I couldn't believe
it and then later had doubts and eventually just wouldn't let myself
believe what Allison and others could see so plainly.  Many of my life
decisions have been fear-based; getting sucked into denial is just one
of them, it seems.
 
Wolf says 'ditto,' (But not in those words).
 
...
 
My turn.
 
I was so not ready for all this!
 
But that's not what we are writing this post about.  Panther is giving
me 'that look' -- the one that says 'get on with it.' :)
 
We are writing to send everybody a big thank you for listening to us
through all our angsty rants and for all the encouragement to 'just do
it!' (something I think I've heard a lot more of lately ;))
 
...
 
If Wolf is done with his little innuendoes, I'll just get on with it
here.
 
We are about to go on digest because we can't look in on the list as
often as we have been.  Wolf needs to focus on his academic work and we
both need time to focus on each other.
 
I feel strange saying this.  I've known this guy for 3 years, but now I
feel as though I have to get to know him all over again.  I didn't
realize that ...
 
I don't know how to say it.
 
It's not that there is *more* feeling here or *more* relationship.  It's
more like it's *different.* Like we've moved *sideways.* (Wolf is doing
little sideways dance steps for our amusement.  He is so cute.  Oops! He
didn't like the "C" word.)
 
Anyway, now we need the time to figure this out, figure each other out.
 
...
 
Panther and I still want to check in on the list and maybe de-lurk
occasionally on threads that we have something to say about.  And we
definitely will read the Tuesday Morning Quarterbacking of the eps this
season!  Probably join in.
 
If anyone wants to 'e' us privately, feel free.
 
Thanks for listening.
 
And happy Watchman watching!
 
--Wolf and Panther
 
 
oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
 
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999, 5:25 p.m.
 
"What are you *doing*?
 
"What does it look like I'm doing, Jim?  I'm taking out the recycling."
 
"But what's in all those shopping bags?  Where did they come from?"
 
"My room.  They came from my room, Jim."
 
" .. And?"
 
"What's in 'em?"
 
"That's what I asked, Blair."
 
"My stash of small paper bags, Jim.
 
Re-cycling them.  Don't need 'em anymore."
 
                               --finis--